Andrew Clennell:
Joining me live from Melbourne is the Assistant Treasurer Daniel Mulino, ahead of this all‑important federal Budget. Daniel Mulino, thanks for your time.
Daniel Mulino:
Well, thanks for having me on Andrew.
Clennell:
So is this Budget about implementing all the failed electoral promises of the 2019 election?
Mulino:
No, well so there’ll be a lot in this Budget, which is implementing the things we took to the election last time. And today, without any kind of coincidence, we see the announcement of significant funding for Urgent Care Clinics, which was an absolute centerpiece of what we took to the last election. I’ve got a couple in my electorate. They’re very busy and very much appreciated. And there’s been evaluations of those Urgent Care Clinics, which shows that they’ve been used, I think, over 3 million times and have taken a lot of pressure off ED departments.
We’re also going to see in this Budget a further tax cut for all and that was a key issue at the last election. That was a difference between what we took and what the opposition took, where they said they were going to unwind 2 tax cuts for all Australians. But when it comes to other measures – as the Treasurer said – the election promises that we took to the last election were the foundation, we are implementing them systematically and thoroughly. But look, we will do other things this term, and that’s part of what people expect governments to do
Clennell:
Well you’re doing Bill’s policies, I mean, you might as well throw franking credits in there. Mightn’t you. I mean, you’re doing Bill Shorten’s policies, aren’t you?
Mulino:
No, and look, so I think when you look at intergenerational fairness as one of the key themes, and when we had the 3‑day Economic Reform Roundtable, the 2 key things that came out for me were intergenerational fairness and the need for higher productivity growth. On the intergenerational fairness front, we’ve already done a whole bunch, which includes cutting HECS by 20 per cent, the 5 per cent house deposit scheme – which has been taken up by over 300,000 people. I was at a community event on Friday night, where a number of people came up to me – young people – who said that the 20 per cent cut in HECS had made a huge difference –
Clennell:
– I’m sure, I’m sure Mr Mulino But that’s not the question.
Mulino:
– intergenerational fairness –
Clennell:
– the question is, will you admit that you’re basically taking on a lot of Bill Shorten’s agenda from the 2019 election in this Budget you’re looking to? Trusts, negative gearing, capital gains tax.
Mulino:
Well, look, what I would say is that we have a number of policies which we’ve implemented on intergenerational fairness, and that what we also undertook to do was to have a 3‑day reform roundtable which looked comprehensively at economic policy and broader regulatory policy. And coming out of that 3‑day reform roundtable were a whole series of ideas. One of them was that we needed to pass the EPBC Act and that reform roundtable
Clennell:
– that’s not my question. Was Bill right all along?
Mulino:
What I’m trying –
Clennell:
– was he right all along, Bill Shorten as far as you and the Prime Minister are concerned.
Mulino:
And what I’m trying to give you is the context that look, we’re looking at tax reform also coming out of that process and more broadly. And I’m not going to announce the specific things that may or may not be in the Budget, but I think the Australian public would hope that we would look at tax in the context of these broader themes of intergenerational fairness and productivity.
Clennell:
You’re looking at Bill and Chris Bowen’s tax reform, aren’t you? That’s the bottom line.
Mulino:
I wouldn’t characterise it that way at all. And you know, when I was in the 3‑day roundtable.
Clennell:
– But it’s very similar policies
Mulino:
Well, you’re speculating on what might be in the Budget. And what I’m saying is, and I reiterate the Treasurer’s words, our policies haven’t changed. Where we’re putting into place tax cuts for all Australians. Whether there are new measures in the Budget, we’ll see in a week and a bit. But what I wanted to provide was the context that we are looking at tax policy in the context of a broader discussion that we instigated, and that was really unanimously signed up to by stakeholders from right across the board. It was a very constructive process and has continued on since that time.
Clennell:
How do you reckon Bill Shorten is going to feel on Budget night? He’s going to have a wry smile on his face, isn’t he?
Mulino:
Oh, well, I think Bill Shorten would have thought that all of the last 4 Budgets were very strong. I think he’ll probably think the same with this one.
Clennell:
Here we are on the one‑year anniversary of your election win today. And at that campaign, we had no mention of negative gearing changes, no mention of capital gains tax changes, no mention of changes in tax on trusts. And it appears you’re looking at doing all 3. You heard the Prime Minister there with me 2 days before the election. You know, quite indignant that I would deign to ask, are you looking at negative gearing changes? Now, how do you possibly justify any of these changes if you go through with them?
Mulino:
Well, I think the job of government is to implement the things that it took to the election, the things that were part of its mandate, and we’re doing precisely that. We are putting into place a number of material tax changes, including 2 rounds of tax cuts for all. We are also putting in place a range of other policies, and I’ve just talked about a few of them, including the 20 per cent cut to HECS – which was our first priority – and the Urgent Care Clinic funding today, but people don’t just want government to just stop –
Clennell:
– That’s right, not just put in new taxes for Australians.
Mulino:
No, people want governments to have an agenda where they’re willing to look at new policy ideas based on the nation’s longer‑term challenges and I think 2 of those challenges are the need to deal with intergenerational fairness and the need to boost longer‑term productivity growth. So I think people are open to governments developing a broader agenda based upon the platform of what they took to the election.
Clennell:
Okay, can you confirm my report that if there are changes to negative gearing, they’ll be grandfathered?
Mulino:
Well, I don’t think you’ll be surprised to hear that my answer on that front is identical to the one that you got from the Treasurer 2 weeks ago. Look, there’ll be all of the details of policies on that front laid out in the Budget. But I just go back to the broader context within which we’ve considered tax policies as part of our broader process, and those, those themes, have very much informed what we’ve looked at.
Clennell:
To not grandfather the arrangements would be electoral suicide though wouldn’t it?
Mulino:
Well, look, I think, and again, as I think, the Treasurer has flagged that when you look at any tax policy, but particularly ones of the nature that we’re talking about now, you would consider the impact of decisions people have made in the past. But I don’t want to get into any of the details. I would simply say that I think the package that will be brought through in the Budget will be fiscally responsible and will be designed with fairness in mind.
Clennell:
Can you confirm arrangements around family trusts are being looked at, and why is there a need to look at them?
Mulino:
Well, I don’t want to get into specific tax policies, and that’s why I talked about the broader context. Because coming out of the discussion that we instigated late last year, the one thing, or one of the few things that was unanimous across all the stakeholders – whether it be academic experts, industry, unions, community groups – was that we needed to look at productivity growth, we needed to look at intergenerational fairness. And so those were the overarching themes that have very much informed the different policy ideas that we’ve considered.
Clennell:
Maybe a bit broader on this trust issue, then. What is the tax benefit to people currently of setting up family trust? Can you give me an example and tell the viewers what the tax benefit derived by people who go down this path is?
Mulino:
Well, look, that really depends on very specific circumstances. So trusts can be used for a whole range of reasons, and that’s what would be very difficult for me to talk about such a wide‑ranging vehicle in specific examples in this context. But look, clearly, trusts are suitable for a number of people. There are a range of different mechanisms that people use and as a broader tax consideration. What I would say is that we want a tax system which treats different means by which income is earned and distributed as evenly as possible and as fairly as possible. So horizontal equity – as you might call it – is a very important consideration. But trusts are used for all sorts of reasons, and in all sorts of contexts. I think it’s very –
Clennell:
Are they used to sort of put assets in children’s names so tax doesn’t have to be paid? Just, just explain it to the lay‑person listening?
Mulino:
So trusts can be used to distribute income within different settings. So it could be used to distribute income to different members of a family, but look, it’s used in so many contexts. I wouldn’t want to provide a generic description of why trusts are used or not used in different contexts compared to other vehicles, such as the corporate vehicle or partnerships or any other kind of vehicle. But again, I’d use the general principle that our tax system should be developed in such a way that there is equity across, as much as possible, across different mechanisms by which people earn and distribute income.
Clennell:
There’s a story in the papers today. It’s the biggest tax take by government since the Keating era. And yet what we’re looking at is more taxes, really less deductions, more taxes for Australians. Do you think that’s going to be a bit hard to sell in the current context, because there’s no income, the Treasurer made it clear in that interview he’s not giving income tax cuts as an offset. Or might you consider it? Might you consider something, giving something back if you’re going through all these changes, or is it just into consolidated revenue?
Mulino:
So I think you always need to look at tax in the broader context, and in this case, I think we’re going to need to look at this Budget in the context of what this government has implemented across its term. So we reworked the stage 3 tax cuts in a way that I think was fairer and entirely appropriate for the circumstances that we found ourselves in. We have 2 rounds of income tax cuts for all tax paying Australians. So look, there’s a range of measures which we’ve already put in place, which have benefited people. And I think whatever it is that comes in this Budget, I think you need to look at in that broader context.
Clennell:
Are you considering another tax cut?
Mulino:
Again, I don’t want to get into the specifics of this Budget. It’s only 9 days away, and we’ll be able to have –
Clennell:
– so you don’t rule it out.
Mulino:
– discussion of particular. Well, I’m not ruling anything in or out and and in that sense –
Clennell:
We might see a bigger tax take, and you’ll give us another tax cut.
Mulino:
Well, I think the difficulty with rule in, rule out, is that if I rule out any particular thing, you’ll just keep raising things until –
Clennell:
– No, I won’t. Actually, I’m just particularly concerned about whether Australians are getting a tax cut. Can you rule out there’s a new tax cut in this Budget?
Mulino:
Well, in this interview, and all interviews, I’ve not gone into any of the specifics, I have been willing to talk about the broader context and also the government’s broader tax agenda. But I think I’ll really leave the details for Budget night itself – for the Treasurer to announce – and then more than happy to come back on any one of your shows, Andrew, to talk about the specifics once they’re out there for us to discuss.
Clennell:
All right, I’ll take that invitation up. Interest rate hike expected this week. What’s your message to Australians on on that?
Mulino:
Well, clearly, you know, I’m aware that a lot of Australians are already doing it tough, and that’s why we’ve put in place a whole range of measures. So, look, the 50 per cent cut in fuel excise was a really important measure that I know is particularly benefiting people who find it hard to shift away from using fuel, people in the outer suburbs, tradies, people in regional areas. So that’s been really important. The Urgent Care Clinic announcement we saw today is critical. The spread of bulk billing and more accessible bulk‑billed services is really key. Cheaper medicine.
So look, we’re responding through firstly, our overarching fiscal policy is responsible. It has put downward pressure on inflation, but we also totally understand that interest rates, even as they are, are making it tough for a lot of people, and so we have a whole range of cost‑of‑living measures and supports in place, most of which, I might add, the opposition has voted against so that’s an important comparison.
Clennell:
Might you, might you extend the fuel excise cut?
Mulino:
Well, look, we’re just one month into that fuel excise cut. I think we need to really see how the overseas conflict evolves, how prices evolve for oil. But I think you know, it is doing what it was intended to do. It’s not a silver bullet, but it is providing material support for people. And as I said, it’s providing support for people who are really doing it tough when they can’t shift away from using petrol.
Clennell:
It is, so might you extend it?
Mulino:
I don’t think anybody in the government’s ruling out that. But I think what they’re saying is that they’ll look at that closer to the time when it is coming towards its end.
Clennell:
So it won’t be in the Budget? A decision on that.
Mulino:
Well, again, I’m not going to say what’s in or out of the Budget specifically. This has –
Clennell:
– That’s what you just said, Mr Mullino.
Mulino:
This has 3 months to run.
Clennell:
So any decision on that will come post‑budget?
Mulino:
I would expect so.
Clennell:
Thank you. Just a couple of quick questions, nearly out of time on the Bondi Royal Commission interim report. Shouldn’t the government have done more to increase counter‑terrorism funding?
Mulino:
So firstly, I think it’s really important that the Royal Commission has provided an interim report so quickly and a really high‑quality and thorough interim report. I think it’s important that the government has accepted so quickly all of the recommendations that relate to it. What I would say is that, as I understand it, the funding for all of the key agencies – ASIO, ASIS and the Signals Directorate and others – is at higher levels than when we came to power. So look, there are, of course, going to be, and rightfully so, investigations of particular programs and initiatives. But my understanding is that the funding of those organisations has increased. And I think it’s also important to note that in the interim report, the Royal Commission found that there were no material gaps in regulatory or legislative arrangements.
Clennell:
Briefly, I’ve got 2 seconds. Will there be more money for counter‑terrorism funding in the Budget?
Mulino:
Look, I’m not going to get into again a specific program, but I think the fact that the government has responded so quickly and accepted all of the recommendations is key. And look, I’ll leave the details of specific implementation of those recommendations to portfolio ministers and the Prime Minister,
Clennell:
Assistant Treasurer, Daniel Mulino, thanks so much for your time.
Mulino:
Thank you.