Patricia Karvelas:
Assistant Treasurer, Daniel Mulino, joins me in the studio. Minister, welcome.
Daniel Mulino:
Thanks very much for having me on, PK.
Karvelas:
Okay, so the Opposition wants to slash the excise, that would be 26 cents a litre off. I mean Australians would love that right now, wouldn’t they?
Mulino:
Well, can I just take a step back and say that the government’s already taking a significant number of actions. The PM has convened National Cabinet twice and we’re coordinating with state governments, we’ve appointed a National Supply Coordinator, and the Minister for Energy has released a significant amount of petrol from reserves and has also temporarily lowered standards so that we can get more fuel into the system, and in an area close to my portfolio, we have just through parliament, through the House of Representatives, doubled the penalties through the ACCC for price collusion.
Now, it’s interesting last week when this issue was front and centre just about every day, the Opposition didn’t raise this issue of the fuel excise once for discussion or debate, and it just seems like today it’s been raised as a bit of a thought bubble. There’s a whole lot of action underway which is leading to more supply, plus market supervision by the ACCC. So that really should be the focus.
Karvelas:
Okay. I understand, you know, that timing is everything, but the idea itself, all of the measures you’ve mentioned all have merit, and I think have broadly been supported, but none of them make petrol cheaper.
Mulino:
Well, no, I think measures in relation to supply do make petrol cheaper, and I think the measures in relation to the ACCC have a key impact on the behaviour of key participants in the market. So the increase of penalties, the penalties for price fixing, for the misuse of market power were $10 million under the previous government, they were in the cryogenic freezer for a whole decade.
The OECD has said that our penalties for price fixing for collusion are way too low. We have increased it in 2022 from 10 to 50 million, now to 100 million. That’s a real deterrence, so that does have an impact on market behaviour and price.
Karvelas:
But the Prime Minister didn’t rule it out today, he could have, so that means you do think it has merit as an idea to consider?
Mulino:
Well, look, what I would say is when it comes to that kind of intervention, look, we have a whole range of cost‑of‑living supports in place; we have tax cuts for every taxpayer, 2 going to be delivered, we have a whole range of measures in other areas, including rent assistance we’ve delivered, and cheaper medicines, and I think we’re in the context of looking at a wide range of measures.
So I think the Prime Minister rightly is not in the space of ruling in or out every single measure that might be considered. The focus though rightly is on supply and also monitoring behaviour in the market.
Karvelas:
The road user charge is the other part of the proposal that they’ve put forward. Does that deserve to be looked at?
Mulino:
Well, again, I just say it’s very strange that we’ve had 4 days in parliament, we’ve been debating the details of a whole range of measures in relation to these matters. Just about every question in Question Time was on issues of fuel, fuel supply, fuel price, and we’ve had a couple of ideas lobbed out at a morning press conference, but this frankly is not unusual for the Opposition, that tends to have a series of thought bubbles some of which are then walked back.
Karvelas:
But the problem for Labor and the government is that some of those bubbles, if I accept your language – and we can debate the language on another date – might actually be very popular; Australians might think 26 cents off a litre, ‘Yes, thank you, I would like to see that’.
Mulino:
Well, yeah. I just once again point to the fact that there’s a wide range of actions that we’re taking, and I just would also add that as a federal government, one of the key things that we need to ensure is that we have the appropriate level of reserves, and our reserves are at significant levels compared to where they’ve been over the last 15 years.
As the Minister for Energy has pointed out, he’s working very closely with suppliers to ensure that the ships continue to arrive, and where any ships have been interrupted, he’s worked very diligently to ensure that they’re replaced. So these supply issues are the focus.
And again, I don’t want to come on this show and just rule in or out any particular idea that’s been put out there. I’m sure that if ideas are in the mix, not just from the Opposition but other stakeholders, they’ll be given due consideration.
Karvelas:
The Prime Minister mentioned not wanting to repeat the mistakes of COVID. One of the mistakes of COVID was that famous moment, I think it’s infamous – they’re studying at school, I’ve seen my daughter studying at the moment, it’s incredible how history happens quickly – where Scott Morrison said it’s not a race on vaccines. Don’t we need to be in a race for fuel, getting more fuel here, spending what we can in a race to get the fuel here?
Mulino:
Well, I think we are acting with great urgency, and I think when you look at what the Minister for Energy has done over recent days, we’re getting regular updates on the level of fuel in the reserves, and he’s giving updates I think daily at the moment as to ships that are arriving, and where there’s interruptions he’s working with meetings daily and sometimes more than daily to ensure that those ships are replaced. So I’d say that we are acting with the kind of urgency that is required.
Karvelas:
And will we see – just in terms of the optics of this, during COVID where we had a big crisis we had these daily press conferences, they became almost the sort of signposts of the day for so many Australians – will we see more of that, like the Prime Minister, the National Coordinator fronting up and answering questions?
Mulino:
Well, look, I think we are seeing more of that, frankly, and you know, we’re seeing in the parliament daily updates on a whole range of aspects of this. You know, as you said, we saw the Minister for Energy and the Prime Minister standing up together today, so I don’t want to try and guess exactly what the media timetable of all the senior ministers is going to be, but look, this is a matter of significant importance for our economy and our community and it is receiving a significant amount of attention.
Karvelas:
There’s just a few other issues. Cyclone Narelle has forced production cuts across key Australian gas export plants. Do we know the scale of this yet?
Mulino:
No, so look, I’m not up‑to‑date on the details there, and I mean part of that obviously relates to the ways in which that evolves.
In my own portfolio I deal with the insurance arrangements for households, for small business, and clearly I’m very keen to engage with insurers to make sure that they follow through on their obligations to communities as they’re affected.
Karvelas:
And the communities that have already been affected up north, obviously now it’s moved to WA, is it your advice that they are doing that?
Mulino:
Well, so I haven’t actually monitored that directly yet. But what I would say is I’ve gone to communities affected by other natural disasters in my role and I have seen that in the setting up of emergency hubs, in the communication strategies they’re using with households and businesses, that things have improved since the 2022 floods, and ironically in a sense that came out of recommendations in part from a committee I chaired last term, and now as the minister responsible for insurance, I’m working closely to make sure that they follow through.
So I think people are very vulnerable following natural disasters obviously, they really should treat people with timeliness and respect.
Karvelas:
Just a couple of things very much in your portfolio. I mean you’re the Assistant Treasurer as well, and I know you have some overview. The News Bargaining Incentive has become a bit of a source of frustration for Australian media executives, the News Corp boss was talking about it recently. They believe the delay in introducing legislation is having serious commercial ramifications for them. When will it happen?
Mulino:
So what I would say is that my understanding of the media’s response to this is that they very much welcomed the release of the discussion paper late last year, and in that discussion paper we flagged the government’s predisposition on a range of issues. We’ve received submissions on that, and I can flag that we are now working with a great deal of urgency on putting together an exposure draft piece of legislation.
So I can’t give you a precise time, but I can say that really is near the top of my list. It is a critically important issue, because in the world we’re in, where social media, digital platforms have such market power and influence, we need to make sure that public interest journalism is suitably funded.
Karvelas:
The incentive proposed a tax of 2.25 per cent on the gross annual revenue of companies that don’t strike deals with the media companies, so they get the chance to strike deals first. Are you still going to do that?
Mulino:
So just minor clarification, we don’t describe it as a tax, because it’s really something which is not meant to raise revenue for the government, it’s an incentive which is really there to as much as possible incentivise the digital platforms to enter into commercial agreements. That’s our best outcome.
Karvelas:
Okay.
Mulino:
Now if they refuse to, then we have the incentive in place so as to –
Karvelas:
For that 2.25 per cent?
Mulino:
Well, we haven’t specified the number. That was the predisposition which put in the discussion paper and sought comments on. That was a number of that we put out there which we thought broadly replicated the commercial agreements that had been in place.
Karvelas:
And is that still fair, that number?
Mulino:
Well, so that’s a predisposition, we’re now considering our precise position in light of the comments that we’ve received.
And what I would say is that whatever the number is, it will operate in such a way that if the digital platforms don’t enter into commercial agreements that money will pass through to the media operators.
Karvelas:
Okay. So you’re going to stick to that, even though –
Mulino:
That aspect of it we have clearly committed to.
Karvelas:
And Donald Trump –
Mulino:
It’s not going to raise money for the government.
Karvelas:
Not for the government, but for the media organisations ultimately, that’s the idea.
Mulino:
Yes.
Karvelas:
But it will be seen, I mean, language is, you know, very politicised, we all know that, it will be cast as a sort of tax on these tech giants, I can see the point you’re making; if it’s seen that way it could be weaponised in the United States by the Trump Administration. How are you going to deal with that; are you going to stick to your guns?
Mulino:
Well, I’ve made clear in a range of public fora that this is an incentive, that any revenue raised, if the digital platforms refuse to engage in commercial agreements will be passed through, I’ve made that in a range of fora, and the Prime Minister has indicated publicly, and obviously I, as minister, have indicated that we remain committed to this policy.
Karvelas:
Just a few other ones, Anthropic AI Chief Executive is coming to Canberra next week. Are you going to meet him?
Mulino:
He’s not on my list. I mean I’m very interested in AI, but I’ve got so many stakeholders in my portfolio, but look, I’m very interested in AI, and I can say that it’s being applied in a whole range of areas in financial services.
Scams is one of the interesting ones where it’s being used by the perpetrators of scams and also being used by the regulators and by the banks and other protectors of individual assets, so AI is right at the forefront of developing policy in that area and others in financial services.
Karvelas:
Minister, thank you for coming in. It’s very good to have you on the desk; the best way to do an interview.
Mulino:
Great. Thank you very much.