Peter Stefanovic:
You’re on First Edition, folks. Petrol and diesel shortages are becoming more widespread across the country and the price of diesel is now being more commonly seen above the $3 a litre mark. That’s in the cities, not just the regions now.
Joining us is the Assistant Treasurer, Dan Mulino, and the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, Jonathon Duniam, good morning to you both. So Dan, I’ll start with you. How long do you expect these shortages to last for, and in many cases, refilling those stations that have completely run out?
Daniel Mulino:
Well, morning Pete, and Jonno, and look, what we are seeing are significant disruptions to global energy markets, and this was reflected in the speech by the head of the IEA yesterday, and the government’s taking action on a range of fronts including the PM meeting with and discussing these issues with a range of foreign leaders, including the PM of Singapore, and they put out a joint statement.
We’ve seen the government through National Cabinet appoint a National Energy Supply Taskforce Coordinator working with the states who will each appoint their own, and we’ve got the ACCC looking at energy markets as well as some of the flow‑on effects of these issues in supermarkets. The ACCC has seen its penalties for price gouging and cartel behaviour increased from $10 million under the previous government to 50 million, and it’s going to double –
Stefanovic:
Has anyone been penalised yet though?
Mulino:
– in relation to – well, so the ACCC is putting significant resources into monitoring markets, and so the threat of those penalties is really – is real, and the ACCC is devoting significant resources to that monitoring.
Stefanovic:
All right. Let’s get your reaction to that, Jonathon, the action that Dan Mulino just talked about.
Jonathon Duniam:
Well, ‘action’ is probably a loose term I’d use in relation to that, appointing coordinators and having an exchange of letters with the Singaporean PM, which I’ve read and it sort of talked about talking more, but no guarantee of fuel supply.
So 2, 3 weeks ago, we were told, of course, we were all idiots because we were questioning what was going on and that we were whipping up fear. Then of course we now are told we are in a crisis, and even yesterday we were asking the minister in the Senate, Tim Ayres, ‘Well, you know, when did you find out these 6 ships that were coming have now cancelled, and have you contracted any more ships to come to Australia to guarantee supply?’ No answer on either question.
They’re the sorts of things we’re worried, and dealing with those sorts of issues as opposed to appointing bureaucrats and having meetings is going to deal with this supply problem we have. But the government seem all out at sea on this, and I’m very worried about where this takes us.
Stefanovic:
Yeah, I think that’s a good point, Jonno. Can you guarantee supply, Dan?
Mulino:
Well, firstly I never have and won’t call Jonno an idiot on this issue or others. But can I just say, look, when it comes to the federal government’s – or one of the federal government’s key roles, like we are seeing the ships continue to arrive, and so we’re seeing Australia receiving liquid fuel and the national supply and the national stockpiles are continuing to be in good shape.
Minister Bowen is in very regular discussions, daily discussions, and where there have been disruptions of particular ships there’s been discussions and fast action taken to make sure that other sources are secured. So that’s really critical when it comes to the Commonwealth’s role.
Stefanovic:
Okay.
Mulino:
But I think, you know, there are concrete actions that we’re taking. I mean lifting these penalties is really significant when it comes to the behaviour of major corporations and putting resources into the ACCC to make sure they can monitor in detail the behaviour of our fuel suppliers.
Stefanovic:
Well, what does all of that mean for those service stations in the regional areas that have run out of fuel, Dan?
Mulino:
Well, as Minister Bowen indicated yesterday, and he talked about the fact that there are a number of petrol stations in each jurisdiction, and he ran through those numbers, but this is where we need to have the federal government and the state governments taking action together, because state governments control a lot of the levers when it comes to the transport system and the distribution system within each of those jurisdictions, and that’s why having a national fuel supply coordinator is critical, but we also need each jurisdiction to take parallel action. So National Cabinet is going to be critical here.
Stefanovic:
Okay. But I mean still, you need to get fuel out to these stations that have run out.
Mulino:
No, no, exactly. And so, look, as I said, the Commonwealth needs to make sure that we have the aggregate fuel supply secured and that we need to make sure that that’s arriving, and that is happening. But then we need to work with states, we need to work with the industry. I mean it’s got to involve all stakeholders working together to make sure –
Stefanovic:
Sure.
Mulino:
– that we get fuel to those local areas where supply is not keeping up with demand.
Stefanovic:
So back to you, Jonno, I mean, look, we’re seeing the price of diesel is continuing to soar, which means that that’s, you know – this is for farmers who are harvesting at the moment – that means the price of groceries, et cetera, is going to go up, so you know, there is a flow‑on effect to all of this. By undercooking things earlier and not placing more of a priority in getting diesel out to the regional areas, I mean is this an own goal by the government?
Duniam:
Well, when they prioritise politics over outcomes for Australians, then of course we’re always going to lose out. I mean 3 weeks ago we were told, ‘No issue, nothing to worry about’. Well, clearly there was, and they’re now admitting that. Now they’re telling us, ‘Everything’s okay, we’ve got coordinators and statements of intent and National Cabinet meetings’. That’s not going to, as I said before, translate into fuel going to service stations, to farmers, to logistics and supply chain operators.
So, no, we are not going to be better off, and I have not heard a single guarantee from a Minister in this government that we won’t run out, we won’t have fuel rationing or the prices will come down.
Stefanovic:
Okay.
Duniam:
So when they can tell us that sort of stuff, then I’ll be satisfied, but till then, I’m very, very worried for our country.
Stefanovic:
All right. Okay. Can you give those guarantees, Dan, before we go; can you give those guarantees for those points that Jonno just made?
Mulino:
Well, Pete, can I just firstly say, I don’t think anybody in the government’s saying everything’s okay and there are no issues. Look, we acknowledge that there are some people doing it tough, but look, we are facing a situation in which there is a significant military conflict in the Middle East, and as the head of the IEA indicated yesterday, we’re seeing a disruption to global oil supplies that is significantly larger than the shock that we saw in the 1970s.
Stefanovic:
Sure.
Mulino:
So this is going to have impacts on our economy, it’s having impacts on economies right around the world. And so what we need to see is that governments take actions in all the areas that they can control –
Stefanovic:
But no guarantees there?
Mulino:
– and the federal government’s doing that and working with other stakeholders.
Stefanovic:
No guarantees there though?
Mulino:
Well, we’re doing everything we can to secure supply, and so far that has occurred, but to say that we can guarantee that it’s not going to have an impact on price or that there won’t be any disruptions in local areas I think is unrealistic given the nature of the disruptions that we’re seeing globally.
But we’re working very constructively right across the board, and as I said, in the areas that we can control the global – the aggregate supply of fuel, what we’re seeing is that supplies are continuing to arrive, and our reserves are continuing to be maintained at very significant levels.
Stefanovic:
Just on that point of cost though, Dan, I mean is there a ceiling on how high fuel costs could go at the bowser; is $4 a litre becoming more realistic?
Mulino:
Well, I think the thing is, what we understand is that the longer this conflict goes on and the more severe the conflict is the greater will be the impact on energy markets and the greater will be the overall impact.
So it was very welcome to see that a number of military actions have been suspended overnight, and so what I would hope and the government hopes, and I’m sure everybody hopes, is that those suspensions of actions and the talks that appear to be going on will lead to some kind of early resolution.
Stefanovic:
Yeah.
Mulino:
So that’s what we want to see here. The resolution of the underlying conflict is the key to seeing fuel supplies and the broader economic impacts brought under control.
Stefanovic:
Okay. I’m going to have to leave it there, I’ve gone over. But Jonno, Dan, as always, appreciate your time.