KIERAN GILBERT:
Welcome back to AM Agenda, with me this morning is Shadow Small Business Minister Bruce Billson and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer David Bradbury. Bruce, to you, on the Craig Thomson issue the Coalition knows that it's only a by-election away from a general election, is that why you've stepped up the pressure through Senators Brandis and Ronaldson in the last couple of days?
BRUCE BILLSON:
Well there are countless irregularities about what is said to have happened, the explanations are after the event how disclosure through the normal pecuniary interest and Parliamentary disclosure processes had to be dragged out like pulling teeth. The Prime Minister had had a whole lot to say about the timeliness and completeness of disclosure when she was in Opposition, it just seems to be not applied in quite the same vigour under these circumstances and I'm certain that it's because she feels that Craig Thomson is her lifeline to remaining as Prime Minister. *Inaudible*. Lots of questions to be answered, processes are underway and I understand that authorities are looking at the irregularities and they're best placed to do that.
GILBERT:
The authorities are looking through what processes?
BILLSON:
Well you would be aware as I am that there are issues about the explanations that have been provided and whether all of that is keeping in with the current law, that's an issue which we don't involve ourselves in, the authorities deal with that. What we do concern ourselves with is…
GILBERT:
I wasn't aware that there was any investigation, the AEC looked at it and everything was cleared.
BILLSON:
Which issue are you talking about? Because there are quite a number that are at play and it's not our place to get in to offer a commentary on those.
GILBERT:
Okay David what do you say in response?
DAVID BRADBURY:
Well I think that Bruce and his colleagues need to be a little bit careful about what they say here if these matters, as I think they rightly say, are the subject of ongoing investigation and consideration. Some of these matters have been dealt with by some authorities, others as I understand it are still being considered that people need to be careful about the sorts of allegations that they make. I'm a little bit sentimental on some of these things in the sense that I believe people still happen to be innocent until they're proven guilty. I know that that is not such a fashionable thing these days. Craig Thomson, certain issues needed to be addressed and he responded to those matters and these matters have been going on for some two years. These are not new or fresh allegations, he has made certain statements I think even to the Parliament. If Bruce has allegations to make, then they should be referred to the appropriate authorities. I think what we're seeing is a fair amount of smear going on and I think that largely it's about trying to destabilise what's going on.
GILBERT:
Bruce in terms of the register of interest for example which the Coalition sort of targeted yesterday, Craig Thomson is not Robinson Crusoe on that front is he, in terms of people updating registries late?
BILLSON:
That's the point. Everyone has responsibilities to keep those registries up to date, those declarations up to date. What was interesting about yesterday's conversation was that the suggestion money had been provided to off-set costs and expenses and the like. That apparently wasn't the case, and then all of a sudden when it looked like appearing in a newspaper a declaration arises. Now, the point I'm making is that the Prime Minister when in Opposition, had a whole lot to say about these things and was very insistent on Members complying with their responsibilities under those registers and under pecuniary interest arrangements. That vigour needs to be equally applied now that she's Prime Minister to all Members as it should be applied.
GILBERT:
We saw a stoush yesterday in Parliament, I think we've got some vision of the exchange between Mark Dreyfus and Sophie Mirabella after the Liberal front-bencher was thrown out of Parliament. Bruce you've heard the denial this morning that Mark Dreyfus did not say that and stands by that denial, what's the Liberal party saying because your colleagues have accused him of saying it.
BILLSON:
The issue that blew up yesterday clearly troubled the speaker, clearly troubled the Parliament and the suggestion of the language that was used by the Parliamentary Secretary has been the subject of some very heated discussion there. Now, I heard Bill Shorten and he's got one account of it, a lot of other people have a very different account of it and while this was going on there was cat-calling going on in the Senate towards a Liberal Senator. So there seems to be this inconsistency in Parliamentary standards where the Labor Members and Senators get outraged when it suits them, but are completely happy to go and behave in manners that are entirely consistent with what supposedly outraged them when it was an Opposition Member. If these standards of behaviour are inappropriate, they should be inappropriate across the board and not just turn in to the kind of discussion you were having this morning that if a Liberal Member of Parliament did something then that's outrageous but then if a Labor Member does it, apparently it's not. That's the inconsistency that sticks in people's throats.
GILBERT:
David, the cat-calling accusation is another one that the Liberals have levelled at one of your colleagues.
BRADBURY:
I'm not aware of that particular allegation, but I was in the Chamber when this exchange between Mark Dreyfus and Sophie Mirabella occurred, and the words that have been attributed to Mark Dreyfus is not what was said, I can tell you. Having said that, I don't think that it was a particularly edifying exchange that occurred in the Parliament, I don't think it did anyone any favours, but the point Bill made was a really good one and that was that this happened in the context of Sophie Mirabella herself being ejected from the Parliament for her un-Parliamentary behaviour. I don't think it's a good thing for any of us to be saying that this person is worse than that person. I think in the end, we've all got to lift our standards. But I think it's a bit rich to be coming in crying foul about something that was said, alleging something was said that wasn't in fact said, and frankly I think that we've all got to lift our game.
GILBERT:
What about lifting the game on another front as well, Steve Hambleton of the AMA, I played a comment at the start of the program where he last night in a speech called for the end of mandatory detention. In the comment I played this morning and in the chat that I had with him, he repeated that. Both sides of politics are adamant that this is the right policy. Why not look at it, David?
BRADBURY:
Well we take the views of the AMA quite seriously on a range of policy fronts. That doesn't mean that we're always going to agree with the positions they arrive at…
GILBERT:
It's inherently harmful is what he's said.
BRADBURY:
And that's his view. It's the Government's view and it continues to be the Government's view that we support mandatory detention as being a very central and important part of maintaining an orderly migration process. This is obviously an area that is not without contention, that's been the case for the last two decades that it's been a part of the framework. But it is a bipartisan policy as you say, something that the Government believes is a part of the overall framework, and it will continue to be so.
GILBERT:
Is it because the Government doesn't have scope to change this because the Coalition is even more hardline on the policy?
BILLSON:
Well I think the issue that's being missed here is the tensions and difficulties are being escalated because of the enormous number of people in these facilities…
GILBERT:
He made no qualification though, he said mandatory detention full stop.
BILLSON:
Yeah well that doesn't mean I can't make a qualification…
GILBERT:
Pat McGorry said that these facilities are factories for mental illness.
BILLSON:
At the end of the Howard Government years, there were four people in detention as a consequence of arriving by boat. Now, under the Labor policy, we've now seen thousands of people now in these centres, we saw that idiotic freeze on processing people that just extended that period of detention and now we're seeing some pressure as these facilities are bursting at the seams. The resources that are able to be brought to make sure people are appropriately cared for while their circumstances are validated are stretched to the extremes. So you can't separate the fact that the boats are coming, the centres are bulging, you've got to accept that that is adding to the pressure that's being related to in these comments…
BRADBURY:
Even on an aspect of policy that is bipartisan, the Liberals can't help themselves but play politics on this issue. That's the reality of it…
BILLSON:
How can you say that?
BRADBURY:
Bruce, just a minute Bruce…
BILLSON:
You ignore the facts then make a remark like that.
BRADBURY:
You had a go, now I'm going to have a go…
BILLSON:
Well stick with some facts.
BRADBURY:
I'll stick with a couple of facts. The issues that are raised about mandatory detention, we're determined to ensure that people who are in detention have access to appropriate health services and all of the services that people in those circumstances require. But I've got to say, that it is a bit rich when you hear people on Bruce's side of politics that want to run around talking about all the entitlements that people have in detention and all the entitlements that come with that. In fact, the reality is that this is an essential part in establishing and maintaining an orderly migration program. We will continue to do that, but we'll do it in a way that maintains some balance to ensure that any of the harms in which the AMA may be referring can be mitigated which is an important thing that we have to do.
BILLSON:
So you don't think the number of people being detained, the need to expand the number of detention centres has any influence whatsoever on the pressure? I mean it's quite clear that the enormous pressure being placed on these facilities, the ones that were established bursting at the seams, you've had to go and open new centres and you're saying that the volume of pressure building up in these centres because of the number of people they're having to detain has no influence. I mean that's just ridiculous.
GILBERT:
We've got to wrap it up soon but I'll allow David to respond.
BRADBURY:
I'll answer the question in saying of course the volume will have an impact in the same way that it had an impact in the time of the Howard Government. These are difficult issues. Some of the things that were occurring in detention centres during the Howard Government were of even worse scale in terms of the impacts on people…
BILLSON:
Just as long as we're clear, the number in there matters.
GILBERT:
Okay let's reconvene at another point on this, we're not going to resolve this this morning. Gents, thank you both. Bruce Billson, David Bradbury, appreciate it.