KIERAN GILBERT:
Joining me on the program this morning is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer David Bradbury, and the Shadow Small Business Minister Bruce Billson. Bruce first to you, what do you think of the TWU's threat here to take legal action on the Fair Work Australia ruling? Do you think they have the right to legal appeal?
BRUCE BILLSON:
Well everybody has the right to some legal avenues. The question that I hope all parties to this dispute need to ask is, will it be helpful? It does highlight that if the Government had intervened earlier, we wouldn't be at this point now where there is a canvassing of further legal challenges of the process that went through Fair Work, the last thing we need is more disruption in the airlines. That was not helping the economy, it didn't seem to be helping QANTAS and if QANTAS isn't going well then that isn't in the interest of the employees. So I hope that people get around the table, sort it out, but it does provide more argument that the Government should have intervened earlier and not got to this point now where there is legal avenues splitting hairs over the course of events that surrounded the grounding of the fleet.
GILBERT:
David Bradbury, Glen Sterle, a Labor Senator, this morning - a very strong ally of the Transport Workers Union - has said that they have got every right to challenge this and that QANTAS management is not acting in good faith. We heard the Treasurer there; he's making it clear that the Government's strongly opposed to any such appeal. Why shouldn't the TWU, if they feel they're being dudded, have some recourse in the courts?
DAVID BRADBURY:
Of course Kieran this is a matter that the Government has said that we welcome the decision of Fair Work Australia and we have called upon the parties to negotiate in good faith. We're not going to speculate on what may or may not happen if a particular party decides to go down one path. Can I say in relation to the comments that Bruce has made, the Opposition deserve a gold medal in hypocrisy when it comes to this issue. Bruce made the point, and I just want to quote what he said, he said if only the Government had intervened sooner. Well, let's just have a bit of a moment here; there has been some collective amnesia here on the part of the Opposition. What about the way in which they brought their ideological bent on this issue that they put on the table when it came to resolving these matters when they were in Government. Let me just remind your viewers Kieran, that when they were in office, we had one of the longest running disputes in Australian history which was the Boeing dispute which I think went on for nine months. The then Prime Minister John Howard had been petitioned day after day to intervene in that dispute and said, well it's not a matter for Government to intervene. Now we have Mr Abbott, Bruce Billson and others in the Opposition with their collective amnesia coming forward and saying if only the Government had intervened sooner. They do not believe that Governments should intervene in these matters and their history shows that they want to bring back WorkChoices. I think inside each and every one of them, there is a WorkChoices warrior waiting to get out, and all they need is an opportunity to do that. We're determined to stop them getting into Government so that they can't.
GILBERT:
Bruce Billson what do...
BILLSON:
Wow, how was that for an opening effort. That sounds like David has had hysteria and hyperbole for breakfast.
GILBERT:
Bruce, he's not the only one though who has been making that view. Peter Reith, former Howard Government Minister, believes that it would have been inappropriate for the Government to intervene.
BILLSON:
There are some fascinating histrionics there from David and the hysteria and hyperbole doesn't mask the simple fact that under the Government's own legislation, the issues that can be brought to a so-called enterprise bargaining negotiation go way beyond the relationship between the employer and the employee. I mean some of these issues at dispute are whether QANTAS builds a hanger, whether it goes about organising its future plans for the company. I mean certainly the employees have a contribution to make, but to have strike action on the basis of decisions about the strategy and direction of the company is a whole new area of industrial disputation. That's the creation of the Fair Work system that the Government has put in place. In that light, there is a need to exercise the tools that the Government has put in place in the Government's Bill to deal with disputations that have arisen because of the framework that the Government has overseen. That is the issue here, David can rabbit on about histrionics and talk about things in the past but the legal framework was different, the circumstances are different, he should confront the reality that the Bills and the laws that the Government has in place now, the events that are unfolding because of it and the adverse impact it is having on the Australian economy and on the Australian community more generally. That's what he should focus on and spare us the histrionics.
GILBERT:
Okay, David I'll let you respond to Bruce there as it was a fairly lively rebuttal, but can you also try to answer the question that I put to you in the first place because you sort of brushed it aside. I'd like to get your thoughts on whether or not the Transport Workers Union should have the right to appeal the Fair Work Australia ruling. This is the law, the Treasurer says that he's strongly opposed to it, but the fact is that is the law of the land.
BRADBURY:
I'll begin by responding to what Bruce had to say and he says that this is not about bringing WorkChoices back, yet I think he mounted a pretty lively argument as to why the Coalition does, deep down in their hearts, want to change the law...
BILLSON:
You swallowed the parrot David, you're doing well this morning.
BRADBURY:
No, Bruce, you started talking about an expansion of the range of matters that could be the subject of *inaudible*...
BILLSON:
Have a go at Kieran's question mate. That might be a novel approach.
BRADBURY:
Well he did ask me to respond to some of the erroneous things that you said Bruce and if you would just give me a minute, I will. One of the points that you are seeking to make here is you're criticising the range of matters that are allowed to be bargained on. So, are you actually arguing to bring WorkChoices back or not? My understanding is that Mr Abbott has ruled that out, yet the very argument that you are now putting is about bringing back WorkChoices. Now the Coalition has...
BILLSON:
What a contortionist argument, David. Answer the question that Kieran put to you. You know why the disputation is here, you know why the TWU are exercising options that are available to it under your law. Why don't you be accountable for your own law?
BRADBURY:
And these are matters that give the parties rights that they will choose to exercise if they choose to do that. But what we have said, and the reason why the Government intervened in the manner in which we did a couple of weekends ago, was because the level of disputation in this particular matter had reached a point where travellers as a result of the lock-out that QANTAS had effected, the travellers and the tourism industry across this country were put in serious jeopardy. It is incumbent upon a Government in those circumstances to take the decisive action that we did, and we did...
GILBERT:
Yeah but David the point I'm trying to get to is that the Treasurer said that he is strongly opposed to the TWU taking action. The point I'm trying to drill down on here is why should the Government make that point when it is within the law for them to do just that, to appeal this ruling?
BRADBURY:
And we have said consistently that we call upon...
GILBERT:
It's second guessing the law.
BRADBURY:
Well I'm not going to speculate on action that may or may not...
BILLSON:
David, just have a go at the question mate. That might be enough.
BRADBURY:
Well Bruce, do you want to ask them? Because you certainly don't do a good job of answering them either. What we...
BILLSON:
Well if you'd like me to answer it for you I can.
BRADBURY:
You finished?
BILLSON:
You haven't started yet. I think that's the point Kieran is making, try to start to answer the question.
BRADBURY:
The point that I'm making is that we have consistently said that we call upon the parties to negotiate in good faith and there is, as far as I can see, every indication that that is occurring. Certainly there is some reporting to that effect. As to what actions the parties may or may not take under the law, well that is a matter that will play out in due course. But the Government is very much focussed on ensuring that this dispute does not spill over into impacting upon passengers and the tourism industry in the way in which it threatened to do so when QANTAS locked out its workers.
GILBERT:
One of your colleagues Glen Sterle who is very close to the TWU was of a different view this morning. Let's hear a bit of what he's had to say.
*AUDIO*
GILBERT:
Senator Sterle there backing the TWU, he was also backing the TWU at the QANTAS AGM as well, a very strong supporter of them. You got his view, you've heard from Bruce and David; we're going to continue with other issues after the break. Stay with us.
*BREAK*
GILBERT:
Welcome back to the program. With me this morning in Sydney is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer David Bradbury and in Melbourne is the Shadow Small Business Minister Bruce Billson. Bruce I want to look at the sad developments in Afghanistan over the past couple of days and in fact weeks. We've seen another Afghan soldier turn his gun on Australian troops. There were three wounded, two Afghan soldiers wounded and the hunt continues. Tell me, what do you think of public sentiment on this issue? Is it shifting, is the support declining for the Afghan operation?
BILLSON:
I think every tragic loss of life and the serious injuries you've just spoken of - and my thoughts go out to the family members of those that were injured in this most recent incident and to the military personnel that their loved ones have been operating with over in Afghanistan - but each tragedy like that or a moment of casualty like this or the circumstance in which it arose, that certainly gives people an uneasy sense of what is happening in Afghanistan. But I think that's contrasted with the very real appreciation that we have to finish the work that we started there. We were successful in pushing back the tide of terrorism in Afghanistan, a place which was known to be a breeding ground of terrorists and the birth of terrorist attacks around the world that have affected Australians and Australian interests. Now that we have pushed that terrorist influence back, we can't allow the tide to come back in. We have to keep on with our work, and that work involves building up the security and military capability of the Afghan people themselves to be able to protect and preserve their own people and keep terrorism out of their own country. That's a big task Kieran and our role is to build up the Fourth Brigade of the Afghan Army. There are 7,000 recruits a month going through the security and military apparatus in Afghanistan to build up their capability, that training program is going well, we should finish that work, hand to the Afghan community a Fourth Brigade that is functional and effective that can help protect the Afghan national interest and hold back the risk of terrorism re-establishing itself and then our work is done, we can come home. But the worst thing we could do is leave now. That would dishonour the lives of those that have already been lost. That would disrespect the great sacrifice of resources of both blood and silver that our nation has put into this assignment and we need to see it through.
GILBERT:
Yeah we know that there is bipartisan support for this, we've spoken to the Defence Minister at length about this including yesterday and I will take it that David will agree with all of those sentiments. I do want to look at a couple of other issues if I can, we've only got a couple of minutes left, David on the changing of the guard at News Limited, Kim Williams the Foxtel boss is moving over there. He says the nation is facing a bit of glass jaw syndrome at the moment when it comes to media analysis and commentary. I think that's maybe referring to a bit of Government reaction to some news coverage recently; tell me what do you think of this? Will this mark a new era of relations between News Limited and the Government?
BRADBURY:
Well Kieran I think it is a bit of a mistake to try and view the changes that are occurring at News Limited through the prism of this other discussion around relations between the Government and News Limited more generally and to be honest I think that is one of the points Kim Williams was making. As far as I'm concerned and I know I speak for the Government in saying that we wish Mr Hartigan all the best into the future and we look forward to Mr Williams who has proven himself to be a very successful business person. We wish him all the best in his new role and look forward to him steering News Limited through what we all recognise is a changing media landscape.
GILBERT:
John Hartigan is also the Chairman of Sky News, I should point that out. Let's look at the issue of the mining tax, David why not release the assumption that this is based on? Andrew Wilkie wants answers on this; you could placate him and also shut up other critics. Because some of the claims here are pretty worrying that the big miners won't pay a cent under this framework, why not just put the numbers out there and ease these concerns?
BRADBURY:
Well we've heard all sorts of arguments from the critics of the mining tax. First this was going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, now the miners aren't going to pay any tax at all. Which of the two arguments is it? On the question you asked Kieran as to why doesn't the Government release this information, there is a very simple answer. This information was provided on a commercial-in-confidence basis. You need to actually understand what has occurred here. The Government has sat with mining companies and said open your books up so we can make a fair dinkum assessment of how this tax will impact your business and on that basis, knowing that the information would be treated confidentially, the companies have opened up their books. If Governments go around releasing the information that was provided on a commercial-in-confidence basis then I hardly think you're ever going to be able to work co-operatively with any sector in the future when you ask them to come forward. I think the really important point that came out of some of the discussions yesterday was that we have been hearing now for 12 months from the Opposition that the miners have been forced to pay too much tax. What we saw yesterday from Mr Forrest, one of the wealthiest people in this country, that his mining company has not paid a single cent of tax. I find this extraordinary, and it shows how morally compromised the Opposition has become on this issue. On the one hand they say that miners are paying too much tax, but then on the other hand they want to oppose a tax cut for small business. Just to underline this point because as you know Kieran we want to spread the benefits of the mining boom across the rest of the economy, but not only have we seen in the last week that the Opposition has caved in and said that they would keep a good policy, that is to increase retirement savings for Australians, but they are doing that in the context of denying small businesses the tax cut that this Government wants to deliver and Bruce as the Shadow Small Business Minister...
GILBERT :
Well the Shadow Small Business Minister is here, let's put it to him. And if I can, without interruption, let Bruce have the final say here. Bruce there is about two minutes left, without interruption let's let Bruce go with that.
BILLSON:
Well a couple of issues. David failed to mention that in this mining package of bills, there is actually an abolition of the Entrepreneurs Tax Offset which puts up taxes to four hundred of our small businesses. The Government is trying to paper over that assault on our smallest, home based, family enterprise, micro businesses that need and deserve that incentive of a discount on their tax given to them by the Howard Government. That is being abolished, that is being removed. So, their taxes are going to go up. On the question that you actually asked David, Kieran, which was about the assumptions behind the mining tax revenue, the simple fact is nobody is asking for the nitty gritty company specific information, it's the econometric modelling that is important to prove whether the Government's claims about the tax revenue it believes it will receive are actually justified, whether they can be substantiated with the facts. The point being, the Gillard Government caved to the big three miners to allow them to re-depreciate mining assets that have been long run for some time, have little scope for depreciation and therefore little opportunity for depreciation allowance to offset their profit and therefore reduce their tax. The point the markets are making, BDO and other commentators is that the big miners won't be paying any tax, and then David says that this is outrages, look at Twiggy Forrester. The reason Twiggy Forrester, as was presented to a committee hearing yesterday, is in a position of not paying company tax is because a new mine depreciation, the investment allowances and all the things that the Government wants to give to the big three miners and that is why the Government has to be open and honest about what revenue will actually be generated by this mining tax.
GILBERT:
Bruce we'll wrap it up there, David thank you for your time as well. See you next time.