KIERAN GILBERT:
Joining me now on the program is Liberal front bencher Bruce Billson and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer David Bradbury. Gentlemen, good morning. This impasse continues over the asylum seeker issue. We heard from Chris Bowen just a moment ago and we're going to hear from Scott Morrison at nine o'clock. Both sides say they are willing to compromise, but they're not willing to talk, they haven't nutted out a way to get around the table. This is ridiculous. David?
DAVID BRADBURY:
I think certainly that Mr Abbott has made it clear that he won't be budging. We had an opportunity there as a Parliament to give the executive powers that we need to put in place off-shore processing. Post the High Court opinion, regardless of what legal opinion you rely upon, clearly there is some doubt about whether or not our laws as they currently exist, equip the executive with the power it needs to implement off-shore processing. As Chris Bowen said, we have a negotiated arrangement that we've negotiated through the Bali framework ready to go. In fact it would've already been implemented had it not been for the injunctive relief that was sought before the High Court. We brought legislation before the House, Mr Abbott was given the opportunity to support that legislation but he came out very strongly saying what he says so consistently and that is 'no'.
GILBERT:
But David, the Government is the Government. If you're calling for compromise talks, why don't you instigate it? Why don't you get on the phone to Scott Morrison who says that he hasn't been called by the Minister. This is the Government's matter, it has to be at the Government's instigation, surely. Why don't you get on with it; it has got to be above politics doesn't it?
BRADBURY:
Well the Coalition's policy to picking up the phone has always been pick up the phone to Nauru or pick up the boat-phone to turn the boats around and send them back to Indonesia. We have had discussions, and that is a matter on the public record, that there have been discussions. In fact the Prime Minister met with Mr Abbott when this legislation was first being brought before the House. But Mr Abbott has made it very clear and I see no change in his position. In terms of picking up the phone, who picks the phone up first, the bottom line is that the Government has legislation that we can bring back before the Parliament at any time. That's ready to go. We have a negotiated arrangement that we believe will work and I've got to say that I think the reason why on this occasion Tony Abbott is saying no is not just because he sees it to be in his short-term political interest to keep this issue alive, but I think his greatest fear is that the Malaysian Arrangement will work.
GILBERT:
Okay, let's go to Bruce. Respond to David on that issue. The Government has the policy, it is backed by the advice of the officials and I suppose the difference is now the one David referred to with Mr Abbott and the Prime Minister not reaching an agreement, is that we're facing an enormous influx of boats here. Another tragedy will inevitably occur unless something is done.
BRUCE BILLSON - Well Kieran, let's look at the facts. There have been more boat arrivals in the last three days than there was under the last six years of the Howard Government. The Government likes to run down the Nauru solution, yet it worked. The Government started discussions with Papua New Guinea, now it doesn't want to conclude those discussions. The Government's Malaysian so-called-solution didn't see any abatement in boat arrivals, they kept coming. Then, the High Court ruled it out of order because there was no mechanism to protect the asylum seekers and their basic rights that we've signed up to under the United Nations Convention. So what the Howard Government did was make sure that those protections were there. There was a disincentive for boat arrivals and people smugglers and it worked. Six years and fewer arrivals than in the last three days...
GILBERT:
But why shouldn't the Government have the capacity to deliver a policy of its own and you can hold them to account if it doesn't work?
BILLSON:
Well the Government said that it can't turn its back on the protections that we have signed up to, this is the mistake that they made when it came to the last Malaysian solution. In the legal enforceability of those protections, those people that arrive in our care, we need to provide protection to. What the Opposition has is pick any of more than 140 countries that have signed up to carry out those protections of asylum seekers as we have signed up to do. Pick any of those. Pick any of those countries like Papua New Guinea where the Government said that it had instigated discussions. Pick any of those and we can get on with it, honour our undertakings internationally to ensure that protections for asylum seekers exist. When they land in our care or we move them somewhere else, make sure that those protections are there. There is 148 countries that can offer that but what the Government has said is no to that broad suite of options that even they said they were pursuing. It must be Malaysia, it must be Malaysia. This is a discussion where this is it or there is no solution from the Government's point of view. There are many options available under the Opposition's approach. We could get this done today, we could bring the Bill back. All they need to do is agree to work with a country that has signed the Convention as Australia has and we can get on with it. But they won't do it, they won't do it.
GILBERT:
To me it sounds like both sides are being as belligerent as one another here.
BILLSON:
I think what is really going on here is this is the dirty deal that was done dirt cheap. The Greens like this outcome, the Left of the Labor Party like this outcome. Think of the gymnastics that the Government has gone to get other measures through the Parliament. They're $10bn down trying to get two taxes through. David jumps on a boat to make it look like he is serious about border protection but no one will get on a bike to talk with their alliance partners about whatever it is the Government wants. The Government boasts that it gets its way all the time. We have that in the Parliament, why not work *inaudible* as it relates to this policy. There is something going on here.
BRADBURY:
Okay, okay, this is a grand conspiracy between the Government and The Greens to deliver on-shore processing? You know what Bruce?
BILLSON:
What's that?
BRADBURY:
You can break that deal up straight away by coming into the Parliament and supporting our plan for off-shore processing that would deliver the Malaysian Arrangement. Now...
BILLSON:
Or you could pick from 140 other options...
BRADBURY:
I listened to you Bruce, I listened to you. Just give me a minute...
BILLSON:
No you interrupted me three times if I recall.
BRADBURY:
Just give me a minute. The issue here is not about a contest between Nauru and Malaysia, it is about putting in place a solution that will work in the current circumstances. Chris Bowen made a very good point in your interview. He said that it is important for the Coalition to come out and answer one simple question. If they were to implement a Nauru strategy, where will the people that are processed on Nauru as genuine refugees be resettled? Because that is the central question here. Once the people smugglers and people looking to pay people smugglers understand that if you get here and you get turned around and sent to Nauru and you end up in Australia anyway, there is no disincentive. The reason the Malaysian Arrangement will work, is because it is the only arrangement where there is a country on the other side that will be prepared to accept those people and put them back through that queue. That is the genuine disincentive. Bruce says that the Government should be finding a country which has signed up to the Convention, but let's just put to one side the fact that they were prepared to support Nauru before they signed the Convention. Lets also put to one side the fact that countries like Iran are signatories to the UN Convention. What they also need to make clear to the Australian people is, where are the countries out there that have signed the Convention that are prepared to be a part of a genuine deal...
GILBERT:
Isn't that the Government's responsibility?
BRADBURY:
Just let me finish Kieran...
BILLSON:
They're outsourcing.
BRADBURY:
Where are the countries out there that are prepared to be a part of a deal that would allow us to send people back and for them to be processed in a way that does not lead to an automatic situation where they get processed in that country and if they're refugees they are sent to Australia.
GILBERT:
It is the Government's job to find those countries isn't it?
BRADBURY:
Well we found one. We found a country...
GILBERT:
Why not find one that is a signatory to the Convention?
BILLSON:
How about I have a go?
BRADBURY:
There aren't many out there. We've negotiated a deal, we're ready to go with a deal and now on this point of principle that was not a point of principle of any concern to them when they were sending people to Nauru when it was not a signatory, they come in and so no. Well, why?
GILBERT:
Bruce?
BILLSON:
Very quickly three points. That is not right. In Nauru, the signatory issue, that is a lesser test to be a signatory. You know what was in the Howard Government law? You actually needed to uphold those commitments. There was a performance test that Nauru and Papua New Guinea met. You could not meet that in Malaysia, that is why the High Court struck it out. So to assist the Government, we've lowered the bar. We've lowered the bar that says you don't actually have to prove that you can meet those protection tests, just prove that you're committed to implementing the Convention. There are avenues which then performance can be pursued. So it is a lower test, a lower demand for the care of people seeking asylum that the Coalition has offered to assist the Government, and you've turned your back on it. What we've got is a solution that worked. The evidence is in. Fewer arrivals in six years than in three days and David is getting all *inaudible* up about a so-called solution that in theory wants to debate, but in practice it didn't work. It didn't work and they need to work more collaboratively with the Coalition.
BRADBURY:
It didn't have a chance, it wasn't implemented.
GILBERT:
We are nearing closing time, we've got a minute left. Just in a one word answer, should Minister Bowen and the Shadow Minister sit around a table today with this influx happening and sort this out. Yes or no?
BILLSON:
Yes, and bring the amendment from the Coalition into the Parliament. 140 options and the Government can work their way through them.
GILBERT:
David, just quickly, should they sit around and try to talk this through?
BRADBURY:
Of course, but Bruce says we should get together and resolve the situation but then on the other hand he says as long as you agree with what we've just said.
BILLSON:
No. We've given you 140 options, but you're demanding one that has been proven not to work. Go figure that *inaudible*.
BRADBURY:
And where are the refugees processed on Nauru going to go?
GILBERT:
Happy Christmas to both of you, unfortunately the one word answers don't work without discussions...
BILLSON:
It was just a number of one words.
BRADBURY:
I was happy to just say yes, he'll say no, he'll always say no.
BILLSON:
We didn't get to talk about diplomatic feng shui with China and the United States. You know what real friends do? They don't tell you who your other friends should be or how you should relate to them and you should have good friends, we've had good friends and we should find that feng shui again. Have a good Christmas.
GILBERT:
Thank you, that's a nice way to finish.