KIERAN GILBERT
Hello and welcome to the program, this morning we take a look at a claim by Australia's intelligence agencies for greater access to Australians' private internet and phone records. Among the proposed changes is that telephone and internet data of every Australian be held, that data be held for two years and that spy agencies have greater access to social media sites like Facebook and Twitter. Also this morning the latest in the asylum seeker debate and we'll be also discussing the latest on the economy and suggestions by business leaders that our political figures are not doing enough. Joining me this morning is the Shadow Small Business Minister Bruce Billson from Melbourne, and from the Sky News centre the Assistant Treasurer David Bradbury, gentlemen good morning to you both. David this proposal for greater access to Australians' phone and internet records, two years retention of these records, what do you make of it? Is this going to be government policy?
DAVID BRADBURY
Good morning Kieran, good to be with you. In relation to this matter, as I understand it these are matters that are the subject of a discussion paper that has been released, and there has been a referral to a joint parliamentary committee and that committee will be considering the pros and cons of some of the matters that have been ventilated in the papers today. I think I'd make a couple of important general comments in relation to this issue and firstly, obviously, in this day and age, an age where governments all around the world are grappling with the challenges of terrorism and organised crime, it is important that our relevant agencies have access to the information that they need but of course there is always going to be an important need to balance against that the protection of the privacy of individuals. That is not always an easy line to draw up, that's why we've referred this matter to the parliamentary committee so we can have some open public consultation and discussion around this issue, but ultimately these are tough judgements that governments have to make. I would just make one point about the social media angle and it does seem to me that's probably a little bit less significant than some of the other matters in the sense that I think most people should acknowledge that if they're out there using social media then they are in effect making public statements that ultimately will be out there in the public domain.
GILBERT
An official has been quoted in the Fairfax press saying that this is likely to be one of the most controversial inquiries that the committee you referred to, the Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence and Security that they've had to undertake. We saw a similar proposal put forward in the United Kingdom, that was for the retention of data for just 12 months and that was seen as to controversial.
BRADBURY
I don't think it should come as a surprise to anyone that these matters are inevitably going to be somewhat controversial. When you're talking about balancing the need for security agencies to have access to this information, with the need to protect the privacy interests of individuals, it's an incredibly difficult balancing act to make but in the end, governments have to make those judgements. I think it's important that the decisions that governments take are informed by an open, consultative process and that's the approach that we're taking.
GILBERT
Yeah, Bruce Billson civil liberties groups won't be happy obviously, talking about the retention of phone and internet data for two years, what do you make of the proposal, what seems to be an ambit claim at least from our intelligence agencies?
BILLSON
Well we'll need to really carefully look at these proposals; I think David's comments Kieran were quite right, it's trying to get the balance correct and appropriate is the real challenge in this area. The new technologies, social media, the whole digital space is putting real pressure on law enforcement and on people's privacy and getting those new tools right to cope with this new environment. It's a really tough, challenging task. You're quite right, the UK example was for the shelf life of that data to be 12 months, that caused quite an uproar, the proposals that will be the subject of examination by the parliamentary committee go further than that, there are some other recommendations in there relating to the role of spy agencies and the like, these are all very important and nationally significant matters and that's why we'll be considering them very carefully to see whether the balance is right and what's best for our national interest whilst we recognise new challenges in law enforcement that technology is presenting, also new challenges in terms of people's privacy.
GILBERT
Bruce I want to move on now, I'll ask you first of all about the latest comments from a senior business figure Tony Shepherd from the Business Council of Australia has endorsed the concerns expressed by Don Argus about a complacency within our political leadership in Australia and a focus, he believes, too much on slogans rather than substance. Tony Shepherd also talking about the need for reform of Labor's Fair Work Act, I noticed that Mr Abbott was talking about the need for greater flexibility just yesterday when talking to the tourism taskforce.
BILLSON
Yeah that's right, I mean the issues that the economy faces are very serious and require concerted and considered policy responses and I think that's what you're hearing from the business community, that's certainly what I'm hearing from the small business community where those challenges are even more substantial. The 48% increase in small business insolvencies, 95% reduction in small business start-ups, even when you look at global comparisons we've gone from 5th to 15th in terms of our international competitiveness in just the last two years alone, and on the World Bank's doing business index, we've slipped or stayed stable on every indicator bar one, and that was getting a construction permit where we went from 43rd to 42nd. These are real challenges and I think the mining boom sort of and the governments reference to trend growth and things of that kind, are really masking the challenge we all face and that's the need to make sure the economy, the community, the workforce and business are positioned well to continue to nurture prosperity and growth in the economy so we can look to improving living standards into the future, that's important work that needs to be done.
GILBERT
It's interesting, David Bradbury, the Opposition Leader made some comments about flexibility and the need to look at some changes to the Fair Work Act, but the Labor Party already saying that this is a return to Work Choices, it's quite a simplistic response isn't it, given that business is saying there is not enough flexibility, why does Labor just resort to that campaign again?
BRADBURY
Well let's put these comments in context and let me address the broader issue before I come to the specific. Kieran there are people out there in the business community that are suggesting it's important that we put the productivity agenda firmly on the national agenda. To be honest, the government is doing that. We are working closely with business organisations, we are working closely with the states and territories and through the most recent COAG process we have engaged in the beginning of a new productivity agenda. Let's not forget the reforms, the 27 areas of reform we've delivered under our government, let's not forget the fact that it was a Labor government, the Keating government, that initiated the previous wave of competition reforms but more broadly can I come to this point about the need for reform into the future. I think that many of our business leaders have got to be a little bit careful in the way in which they approach this. On the one hand, when we've undertaken important economic reforms, whether it's putting in place a mining tax and with all of the associated spreading of the benefits of the boom that come with that. That was an important reform and one that many in the business community ran very silently or very dead on. In that case, not because they didn't support where we were going to spread the benefits of the boom, but because a handful of their respective members happened to be the big miners. We see the same thing on pricing carbon, the BCA for example, previously an advocate of putting a price on carbon, but when the heat started to get turned up in the kitchen they were the first to drop the utensils and scurry out of the kitchen, leaving others to prosecute the case. When it comes to big reforms, we all need to pull our weight. More specifically on IR, what we saw from Tony Abbott yesterday was him starting to give the first nod and the wink to the business community. He doesn't want to be honest with the Australian people about exactly what his plans are when it comes to workplace relations. He should come clean, he should tell people exactly which elements of Work Choices it is that he is preparing to bring back, rather than simply giving a nod and a wink and then somehow expecting to win the election and then have free reign after the election and subject people to all of the same sorts of laws that we saw under Work Choices when they were last in government.
GILBERT
Okay Bruce Billson what about the issue of slogans, that criticism that was levelled by Don Argus as well, both sides of politics are guilty of that aren't they?
BILLSON
Well I think you just saw a case study with the response you received then from David, you know, spreading the boom, heavy lift, hard policy work, Work Choices, I mean this is what the business community is concerned about when you've got these slogans and David just showed you that, what we were aiming to do what Tony pointed out yesterday was in terms of the workplace regime that Labor has introduced, that regime talks about flexibility that's almost impenetrable in terms of accessing it. There is a flexibility problem, there is a militancy problem and for the small business community in the workplace area, the arrangements that Labor has put in place seem to assume that everyone's got a human resource department of about 20 people ready and able to find their way through the fog and complexity and regulatory burdens and hurdles that are in the current workplace arrangement, that's the concern whereas we've outlined a productivity agenda.
GILBERT
Bruce let's get David's response to that, David your direct response to that assertion by Bruce that it's just mired in complexity and that there has got to be some change. It seems that the reflex of Labor is to always go back to the Work Choices fear campaign.
BRADBURY
The first point to make is that we are conducting a review of the Fair Work Act. It's important to remember that we are going through that process in good faith, consulting around the community including with the business community about the future shape of the act, so that's the first point to make. The criticisms that are being made about the current system imply that there are going to be changes. Kieran, that's the implication of what Bruce has just said. But you know what? They won't tell us what those changes are going to be. The implication of saying there is not enough flexibility is what? That we're going to have a return to AWA's? What is the implication of this allegation that people shouldn't have to be paying in the tourism sector people more money for their wages when they're working on weekends? The implication of that is to scrap penalty rates, these are the things that are being implied. What I'm suggesting is rather than just imply them, rather than Mr Abbott giving a nod and a wink to the business community that "she'll be right" when we get in we'll give you what you want, what we need is Mr Abbott to set out, well it's one thing to make criticisms, but what is he going to do? Because if he's not prepared to spell out exactly what his policies are, then of course the Australian people should expect that if they get an Abbott government, they're going to get a return to Work Choices.
GILBERT
Bruce some of your colleagues are actually of the similar view that Tony Abbott needs to harden up the position and clarify the position on particularly IR, IR reforms to the Fair Work Act, some of your own colleagues have made similar points.
BILLSON
It's interesting just hearing what David was saying about the review, the so called review yet one of the key issues that the business community is concerned about is the review is not able to examine the productivity implications of the Labor regime. For small businesses that wanted to be facilitated in terms of their input, their direct experience, it seems that if you can't prepare a 40-page submission and go through that merry dance of big business, big unions having a say, then small businesses input is not valued. Now in the particular areas and we've talked about this before, I've highlighted that the flexibility provisions for small business are extraordinarily hard to access and the current regime has all the bad elements of a prearranged marriage where you've got parties that are wanting to work out how to support a workplace, it's profitability, it's viability and higher pay for better work, yet you've got this dating agency that the government insists upon in the form of the union movement standing between those sensible conversations that should be able to take place in the workplace deciding what can and can't be done even though they have no connection whatsoever to that enterprise...
BRADBURY
Bruce if it's such a big problem, why can't you tell us what you propose to do about it?
BILLSON
*Inaudible* enterprise bargaining agreement that's extraordinarily complex for people to deal with *inaudible* the area of unfair dismissal, that's a real concern that the government has talked about but small business hasn't seen any of the certainty and simplicity that the government promised so these are some very straight forward and practical areas.
GILBERT
Okay wrap it up, we've got about a minute and a half left quickly gents, talk that the asylum seekers apparently making calls to Australian authorities just off the Indonesian coast, David 40 seconds then Bruce you please keep it brief we've got to cross to the United States after the break, David?
BRADBURY
We've seen from Mr Abbott that he doesn't want a resolution to this problem. He's made the judgement that the politics of this are so good for him that he's happy for people to face the prospect of dying at sea. Frankly, his policy response which involves confrontation on the high seas which will lead to more people drowning at sea by turning boats around, it just underlines how much of a lack of commitment there is to resolving this problem in a decent and humane way.
GILBERT
Alright Bruce your response to wrap up the discussion this morning?
BILLSON
We all know the Coalition has proven that it has the policy formula that's worked before, it will work again, that involves offshore processing, Temporary Protection Visas and, where it is safe to do so, boats that are in Indonesian water should be turned around and returned to Indonesia. This make a phone call so you can get a collection service in the case of Australia's maritime capability, Coast Guard or Navy to come and collect people when they're still in eye sight of Indonesia is just showing what a farce the current situation is...
BRADBURY
Bruce are you saying we shouldn't respond to those calls?
BILLSON
Labor used to believe the same things, Prime Minister Gillard used to believe the same things...
BRADBURY
Don't ignore the question are you saying that we shouldn't respond to those calls?
BILLSON
And that's an issue Labor can't come to terms with. It's just turned its back on its own commitments.
BRADBURY
Bruce, are you saying we shouldn't respond to those calls?
BILLSON
David that is not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is where the boats are sea worthy David, and that's the whole point, sea worthy and safe vessels in Indonesian waters looking for assistance should be able to be turned around where it is safe to do so. Labor used to believe in that, but like everything else they don't believe in much these days.
GILBERT
Bruce Billson, David Bradbury thanks for your time gentlemen, sorry we've got to cut it short there.