DEBORAH KNIGHT:
But there is no doubt that the Prime Minister ‑ that Scott Morrison was hoping that the Cabinet reshuffle yesterday that came through while we were on air would ease the pressure, both on him and the government, over the culture within Parliament and the treatment of women. It's been crippling for the past month.
And credit where it's due. Scott Morrison has taken concrete steps. He's elevated another woman into Cabinet. He's put women in charge of three of the most senior government positions. So Marise Payne is Foreign Minister and Minister for Women ‑ and as Prime Minister Scott Morrison called her yesterday "the Prime Minister for women" ‑ Michaelia Cash, the Attorney‑General, and Karen Andrews, now the Home Affairs Minister. And he's also announced a new Cabinet task force focused on policies impacting women, as well as a number of new female‑focused portfolios. So, it's a welcome and a good first start. But will it deliver?
Well, Senator Jane Hume is the Minister for Superannuation and Financial Services. She's also now been appointed the Minister for Women's Economic Security. And she's on the line for us now. Senator Hume, congratulations on your new role.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, thank you very much, Deb. I'm also actually the Minister for the Digital Economy. It's quite a broad remix and I'm very excited. I think I get sworn in in about 90 minutes.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well, I'm glad we got to have a chat to you before the official duties get underway. Now, the new portfolio, the new shake‑up ‑ obviously it acknowledges that the government hasn't done as well as it could in terms of women's issues and effective policies for women. Why couldn't the government have done better under the existing portfolios? Why was a shake‑up needed?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
I think some good work has been done in the past. You know, the first Women's Economic Security Statement came out in 2018 and that was under my predecessor, Kelly O'Dwyer. And then we followed that up with another Women's Economic Security Statement last year as part of the budget, but it did seem to get swamped as part of that post‑COVID budget response.
I think now this is a real opportunity to do a reset, not just within a Treasury portfolio or not just within an Industrial Relations portfolio, but across all elements of government. So, including in this task force ‑ so Minister Rushton from Families and Social Services; Amanda Stoker as the Assistant Minister for Women, but also the Assistant Minister for the Attorney‑General and the Assistant Minister for Industrial Relations, and my role as a minister in the Treasury portfolio ‑ we cover such a broad remix, you know, across all government services, which gives a gender focus and a gender lens on so many aspects on what government needs to deliver.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well, it needs to be applied to the Federal budget coming up in May because, last time round, around 240 million of the government's $500 billion was allocated to women. So less than half a per cent. Are you going to be pushing for a bigger slice of that pie?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, I don't think that you could appropriately put a gender lens on the budget the way it was delivered. It was ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well, a lot of the policies were top heavy and benefiting male industries ‑ male‑dominated industries in one sector.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Yes.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
And one of the areas that hasn't received any real policy focus from the government is free childcare, which a lot of people are looking for and Labor is promising that, if they were to get into government.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, let me talk to you about childcare, because I think that's a really important area. We know that, you know, families benefit from access to high quality and affordable childcare and that early education, too.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
It helps everyone, doesn't it?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
And when we came to office ‑ it absolutely does. And when we came to office, we carefully set about how we could calibrate early childhood care to make sure that we target families that need it the most and also respect families' choices about how they want to raise and care for and educate their children. And I should mention that over 280,000 more children are in childcare now than when we came to office and we are really investing ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
So why not make it more affordable?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, we're already investing 10.3 billion in the childcare system, and that includes $9 billion to subsidise the fees that are set by childcare centres. So, at the moment around ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
And yet many families say that it's still too expensive and a lot of women are working simply to pay their childcare fees, which is an untenable situation.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, the average out‑of‑pocket cost is around $4 per hour, and that's a drop of around 18 per cent since the package was in ‑ since before the package was introduced. And around 90 per cent of families that use childcare now have a childcare subsidy of somewhere between 50 and 85 per cent of their costs. So, look, it is calibrated to target those women ‑ those families that are either working, that are studying or that are doing volunteer work.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
So is that off the table, then? There will be nothing more for childcare in the upcoming May budget?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I do feel ‑ that if there is an opportunity to recalibrate that, to make sure that it is better targeted, that women are encouraged to take those extra hours to go back out into the workforce and take on, you know, a different kind of job, well, then, that's exactly what we should be focused on that ‑ because the real issue with childcare, of course, is it has a direct correlation with the participation rate. And at the moment the participation rate of women in the workforce is around 61.4 per cent. That's just shy ‑ just shy of the all‑time high of 61.5 per cent that we had at January last year, just before COVID. But participation rate and the gender pay gaps are the real great contributors to ‑ you know, to women's equality quality and empowerment. So ‑ economically.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
The other issue, too, is paid parental leave. And I didn't realise this, but it's the only type of paid leave that doesn't attract compulsory superannuation.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Yes.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
And we wonder why women end up worse off than men after retirement. Surely that should be changed?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Yeah. Look, there are a lot of structural features of the superannuation system that disadvantage women. You know, and super was invented 30 years ago and, to be honest, it just wasn't ‑ it wasn't invented with women in mind. It was built for a man that starts his career at about the age of 19, works without a break until 65 and then retires with a gold watch and his pension. It doesn't account for breaks in the workforce. It doesn't account for caring responsibility. It doesn't account for the gender pay gap. So these are your structural inequities that I think that we can address far better.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
And so is that going to be an issue that you'll be pushing for change in the May budget, urgent change, or is that going to be kicking the can down the road for future policy issues?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
I don't want to front‑run what might be in the budget, but I know it's an issue that I feel particularly passionate about.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Yeah. Well, it's an important issue, because we know that super is ‑ you know, is biased against a lot of women. And the other issue, too, is the gender pay cap, because at the moment companies voluntarily report their gender pay data. Will there be more transparency? Will you be pushing for more transparency in this area?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, that's really a ‑ and super ‑ coming back to super ‑ you know, super is always going to be reflective of your working life. So if you have, you know, broken work patterns. If your participation rate is lower and if you have a gender pay gap, you are always going to end out ‑ end up with a lower superannuation balance. So really those are the two structural issues that we do need to address. I do think that more transparent reporting is a good thing. We have to, you know, find the right balance between, you know ‑ in creating, you know, too onerous an obligation on businesses to report, you know, in minute detail, but at the same time getting to the bottom of what it is that's causing that difference in pay between men and women, particularly when they're doing the same roles.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Are you confident that the Cabinet reshuffle is setting the foundation for bringing about real and concrete change for the issues that we've seen highlighted over the past month? I mean, the issues have been there for such a long time, but the spotlight's been on them in the most appalling way, in terms of the treatment of women and the rape allegations and behaviour by MPs like Andrew Laming. Do you think that we will be seeing real change? Are you confident that things are going to improve in the House, because the Prime Minister has said we need to clean up the House?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
I think that the reshuffle itself is about reframing the conversations back ‑ you know, less reflecting on Parliament House and more reflecting to the Australian society more broadly. You know, we're here to serve the people of Australia and we want to make sure that we're doing that in the best and most effective way possible. I think that this approach to the Cabinet reshuffle will do exactly that.
In terms of culture within Parliament House, you know, that is something that does need to be addressed, and some of the issues we've had in the last few weeks have just been so confronting and genuinely shocking, but ‑ and then you would be hard‑pressed to find a woman ‑ this is outside Parliament House as well ‑ that hasn't had some story of sexist behaviour or gendered behaviour. Yeah, I think ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Have you suffered from that behaviour? Have you experienced that yourself?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Look, I worked for years in financial services and, actually, I felt it far more acutely there than I did in politics. But that said, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that any one sector is worse than the other. This is all an opportunity ‑ this is an opportunity for all of us to reflect on our own behaviour and say, "Well, you know, what do we want our society ‑ what do we want our workplaces to look like?" This is that opportunity to make that change. I'm actually very excited about that opportunity, because there seems to be some genuine momentum and goodwill behind it. And also now we're putting some policy grunt behind it, too, and that really excites me.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
And are you comfortable with people like Andrew Laming still being a coalition MP?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, I think Andrew has, you know, made it pretty clear that he won't stay on forever, but he won't be contesting the next election. He's taking his time ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
But are you still confident ‑ are you comfortable, though, for him to remain in the party room? Are you comfortable sitting with him in the party room until that time?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Yes.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Because he's still taking home his $211,000 a year salary. He'll still be a member of the party.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, I think there has been pretty serious consequences for his unacceptable behaviour and ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well, he's still there.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
And he has said that he is going to make that change and that, you know, our goal is to make the change happen, to change the behaviour and to support him to do that. There's a difference, though, between consequences and punishment, and I think that the consequences are very real.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
What are the consequences, though? He's still there, and we've seen the New South Wales Deputy Premier, John Barilaro ‑ he's taken swift action. He's call for his own MP to resign. He's facing police allegations on ‑ allegations of a rape, and he's taken swift action. He says he wants him to resign immediately.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, he has removed himself from any of his, you know, parliamentary leadership roles, and I think that that is entirely appropriate. But the goal here is to create change, and I think that we can do that, but we can help Andrew to do that, too. But he won't be contesting the next election, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't support him to change and to help him reflect on the unacceptable behaviour.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
So, do you think that empathy training is something a fully‑grown man would need to undertake?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
Well, look, I don't even know what empathy training could possibly involve. I mean I ‑‑
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Nor do I. What ‑ I mean, what is it?
SENATOR JANE HUME:
I'm not sure. I haven't had to have empathy training. I would assume I'm reasonably empathetic already. But it is important that, we know, we hold the mirror up and say, "You know what? This isn't okay. This behaviour is not okay and how can you change your behaviours ‑ how can you change your attitudes to make sure that that doesn't happen again?" And do you know what? If we have to do it, you know, one fellow at a time, so be it.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Yeah.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
But it's really important that we do that, rather than just dismiss the problem out of hand and say, "You're not welcome here."
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Yeah. Well, if it was in the real world he wouldn't be there. He would have been sacked. But Jane Hume, we thank you for your time.
SENATOR JANE HUME:
It's great to be with you, Deb. Thank you.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Senator Jane Hume there, the Minister For Superannuation and Financial Services.