Ellen Fanning:
Australia is apparently suffering an identity shock. What does that mean? Well, how is it that for the first time since Federation we have a population that is majority migrants and their first‑generation children, yet apparently there is surging support for Pauline, who yearns for a monoculture.
One place to figure out answers like that is here in Logan, home to people from more than 200 cultures where support for One Nation is steadily growing, as it has around the country. The local member is a regular at the Saturday morning park run, he’s well known here at the Kingston Butter Factory, he also happens to be the federal Treasurer. Jim Chalmers, great to be in your backyard.
Jim Chalmers:
Ellen, we are so pleased that you’re here at the Kingston Butter Factory here in Logan City. It’s very good of you to come, thanks so much.
Fanning:
Well, John Raven, the mayor, always calls us 612 ABC Logan, so we will see. Let’s talk about identity. This is a place that is younger than the rest of South East Queensland, it’s more diverse, the joint is growing, one of Queensland’s fastest‑growing cities. I want to ask you, is there a sense of shared identity, or do we just have here in Logan, where I grew up, and you grew up, 234 cultures living side by side just tolerating each other?
Chalmers:
No, I think the first version, Ellen. In fact I think one of the reasons why this is a wonderful place is because nobody is asked to park their culture when they move here. In fact we love it that people share culture with each other, a number of the community leaders that you’ll meet here through the course of the evening, they know each other so well because they work so well together.
And obviously any community, including our community, has got its fair share of challenges, but one of the things that we’ve really got going for us, better than most places, is that we really cherish that cultural exchange that happens this places like this.
If you think about it, in Logan City, I think 4 in every 10 people are born overseas; the national average is closer to 3 in 10, and it is genuinely one of the best things we’ve got going for us here.
Fanning:
Yeah. There’s a concern expressed by Hanson; I don’t want to particularly dwell on One Nation, but in her Press Club she referred to the fact that nearly 1 in 4 Australians speak a language other than English at home around the dinner table, even if they speak English outside of the home. Does that divide a community?
Chalmers:
No, I think one of the reasons why Australia is a wonderful place is because there is this kind of dynamism that comes from diversity, and you can see it in our local community. You know, every weekend, every evening there’s something generous going on, people sharing culture with each other. I don’t pretend that that means we don’t have any challenges here from time to time; of course we do, but I think this kind of backward view, this fictional view about a monoculture –
Fanning:
The ghetto, right.
Chalmers:
Yeah.
Fanning:
Also the ghettoisation of people, because we were speaking earlier to SSI, who do the settlement for refugees in this part of the world, right.
Chalmers:
Wonderful people, yeah, wonderful people.
Fanning:
And part of what they’re trying to do is create community and belonging.
Chalmers:
Yeah.
Fanning:
The great fear, I think, particularly in places that are less diverse, is that in areas like this you get ghettos. You’re saying that that’s not what this place is.
Chalmers:
No, and it’s a common feature of communities like ours that a lot of people want to label us or draw conclusions about us without understanding what’s happening here.
People who live and work in this community, you know, again we’ve got our fair share of pressures that people are under, but people who genuinely understand what this community is like aren’t in such a rush to put those kind of labels on us. It’s become the norm here that people share culture, it’s become the norm here that that brings a level of dynamism to our local community, and we’d be poorer without it.
Fanning:
Yeah. Jim Chalmers is the local member here in Logan, the seat of Rankin. Do you have any fears before we move on about the fact that if the LNP ran dead in this community, the Courier Mail reckons you’d be worried for your seat?
Chalmers:
Oh, look, the way that I operate is, at every election, I’m very, very careful not to take a single vote for granted. You know, I understand the nature of this responsibility, and I’ve never taken the outcome of an election for granted.
And so I do understand that politics is changing and shifting; I do understand that the Liberals and Nationals in some part of Australia are becoming less relevant and One Nation is becoming more of a threat in some communities –
Fanning:
How do they –
Chalmers:
– and I don’t take that lightly.
Fanning:
Yeah. How do they get – what is the siren appeal of One Nation? I don’t want to overstate the appeal, but there again, you know, it used to be that you either voted, you know, Holden or Ford, Labor or Liberal, and these days a third of people are looking to park their vote somewhere else.
Chalmers:
Yeah.
Fanning:
How can you have, in a multicultural community, growing support for One Nation when what they’re talking about is monoculture; how do you vote for a monoculture when you’re living multiculturalism?
Chalmers:
Well, I think that’s a good example of how One Nation have – they have slogans, but they don’t have solutions. They’re always looking for, you know, to blame people; they’re always looking for grievance and division.
Fanning:
And why is that appealing to your part of the world?
Chalmers:
Well, first of all, we don’t know that that’s the case. I mean, I saw that story in the Courier Mail, of course I did. But we don’t know that for sure, and time will tell.
But I think it is possible to understand and recognise and acknowledge, as I do, that people are under pressure right around the world, right around Australia and right around our community people are under genuine pressure, and the difference between how I approach that and how One Nation might approach that is I’m in the business of trying to address these legitimate frustrations that people have, One Nation are in the business of trying to prey on that and pick at that, capitalise on that, politicise that.
But for us it’s about cost‑of‑living help and tax cuts and wage increases and trying to make it easier to find a bulk‑billing doctor. We’ve actually got the bulk‑billing percentages up here in this part of the world, and that’s because we take seriously the pressures people are under, we don’t dismiss them, we try and respond to them and address them. And our political opponents take a very different approach, which is to try and divide people, set people against each other and to try and make the legitimate frustrations in our community worse rather than better.
Fanning:
It is 14 minutes past 5 on 612 ABC Brisbane, broadcasting from the Kingston Butter Factory just behind the Kingston Railway Station. If you happen to be down here, come on over; you’ll see the ABC Radio Brisbane bunting. We didn’t have time to change it to ABC Radio Logan, but that could be coming.
Let’s talk about the other big change in Australia, one of the other big changes since 2019. Professional women are the largest segment of the workforce replacing blue‑collar men. Now obviously you’re saying yep, because understanding that was part of the strategy behind back‑to‑back federal Labor’s election victories. Can I say that I don’t imagine that those professional women much like the PM’s boob jokes at the expense of another working woman, the Prime Minister of Japan, Sanae Takaichi.
You know Albanese. I mean, his comments were grubby, his refusal to apologise has been labelled as stubborn; it was unbecoming of a PM. Is that who he is, Jim?
Chalmers:
No, I mean a couple of things about that. First of all, the friendship, the relationship between Prime Minister Albanese and Prime Minister Takaichi is a very good, close, productive relationship as the leaders of 2 great countries. That’s the first point.
Second point is that the Prime Minister, when he was talking with your colleague at the ABC, Sarah Ferguson, not that long ago, made it clear, I think in a welcome way, that if he had his time again, obviously he wouldn’t have gone on that podcast. He tries to talk to people and reach people in all kinds of different audiences and all kinds of different media. But he made it clear that he made an error going on that podcast; if he had his time again, he wouldn’t have gone on and been part of that.
I think, certainly in my conversations with the Japanese Ambassador and others, the focus is on other things, including the very close and productive relationship we have with Japan.
Fanning:
Is he a feminist, because that’s how he presented, as a modern man comfortable with senior women. It took him an awful long time to apologise, and all those senior Cabinet ministers, the women, had to go out and kind of defend the indefensible. What took him so long?
Chalmers:
Well, I think, first of all, he didn’t, you know, he didn’t mean it as it was interpreted. He did go on Sarah’s program and make it really clear that he shouldn’t have gone on the podcast. So people have a view about, you know, whether he should have done that immediately or later. I think it’s really important that he acknowledged that; I thought it spoke well of him that he acknowledged that he shouldn’t have gone on that podcast.
You made a broader point at the start of your question about the way that the workforce is changing. I’m halfway through this wonderful book by George Megalogenis, who you would know?
Fanning:
Me too.
Chalmers:
Are you halfway through it?
Fanning:
Yeah.
Chalmers:
Yeah. And you’ve touched on 2 of the 3 big trends he talks about; first of all, multiculturalism, secondly, the way that the industrial base is changing, the way the workforce is changing, and thirdly, the way that the world is changing. So he sort of touched on all 3 of those things.
And I wanted to sort of just touch on that before you move on, because in a few weeks’ time I’m going to release this thing called the Intergenerational Report, and the about the big trends happening in our society and in our economy and how we make the most of that as Australians, and some of those 3 changes that George mentions, and that you mentioned, are going to be a central feature of that.
And so I’d encourage your listeners who are interested in how the country changes over the course of the next 40 years or so to keep an eye out for that Intergenerational Report. I’m looking forward to talking with people more about it.
Fanning:
The Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, with you in his backyard in Logan. I am a proud bogan from Logan; I grew up at Daisy Hill. Back in the day that was the posh part of Logan. We’re sitting here in –
Chalmers:
4127.
Fanning:
Yeah.
Chalmers:
We’re in the 4114 now.
Fanning:
We’re sitting in Kingston. This used to be the wrong side of the tracks, this used to be the wrong side of the highway, where the battlers lived, right. And these days I don’t think you can say, Treasurer, that a tradie is a battler; there’s so much demand for construction workers in Queensland, right? They make good money and they should. If you’ve got a TAFE qualification, a uni degree, you’re probably not a battler. Who’s a battler in Australia?
Chalmers:
I think everybody probably describes it a little bit differently. I think it’s just people who work hard for a living to provide for the people they love and to try and get ahead, and in one way or another I think most people are under one kind of pressure or another; if it’s not financial pressure it’s certainly time pressure.
Even if you’re earning a decent wage in our society, people feel under the pump, whether it’s work responsibilities, parenting, even the weekend taxi service to and from sport for your kids, all of that puts pressure on people, time pressure, financial pressure.
And so I don’t think the idea that people are battling and working hard is necessarily limited in the way that we might have thought about it once to one sliver or segment of society or another, or one kind of worker or another.
Fanning:
But I’m not asking it to invite you to divide people. My colleague, Loretta Ryan, is sleeping out tonight in a carpark near the airport to raise money for homeless women, the greatest growing sector of the homeless population. We’ve just spoken to Rolando Pisia, who I hope will hit you up for some money for the Logan Youth Centre –
Chalmers:
He’s a good mate of mine, Rolando. That youth centre that he works at, which is wonderful, at Wilbur Street, that is partly federal government funded; I’m very proud of the money that we found to support Rolando’s work.
Fanning:
And the local government council –
Chalmers:
The council, correct.
Fanning:
– are all coming together to put that together –
Chalmers:
Correct.
Fanning:
– and change lives, 25,000 kids through the door since December last, 2024. And he always tells the story of the local copper coming around and saying, ‘What happened to all the kids who were hanging around the shops making mischief?’ They’re all in that youth centre.
Chalmers:
Isn’t that wonderful?
Fanning:
He’s a great sport.
Chalmers:
Makes a mean T‑shirt too, Rolando, and his squad; I recommend them to you.
Fanning:
But aren’t they the battlers, the kids who are struggling, who for whatever reason can’t take advantage of free TAFE, who can’t get an education behind them, even a high school education, those women sleeping in the cars, aren’t they the real battlers, the people who have been left behind?
Again, I don’t ask it to divide –
Chalmers:
I understand.
Fanning:
– the community.
Chalmers:
I understand.
Fanning:
But I think we need to be able to answer that for ourselves. Who battles these days?
Chalmers:
Well, if your question is, are they battling, of course. But bigger than that, you know, those kids are my kind of reason why I’m here. Not the reason why I’m talking to you, but the reason why I do the work that I do, Rolando, Uncle Terry, Sean, you know, all these people here –
Fanning:
Sitting behind you, you’re waving at the people behind you.
Chalmers:
Sitting behind us in these very comfortable‑looking deck chairs, the thing that makes – one of the things that makes this place special is those kids who are battling, who are at risk of being left behind or disregarded or disconnected; they’re the reason why we are here.
At some point when you grow up in Logan, as you did and as I did, you get this sense that opportunity in this country shouldn’t just be the exclusive preserve of people who grow up in fancy suburbs. And so you end up doing this kind of work, and the work that all my friends here do, because whether you call them battlers or not, those young people that you are referring to, they are entitled to the same kind of opportunities of a first‑rate, first‑world, wealthy country like ours.
And so whether it’s the youth centre that Rolando runs so well with his friends, whether it’s the work that we are all engaged in together, whether it’s where you started, which is the idea that we’ve got something to learn from each other from different cultures and different communities. All of that is of a piece, and the piece here is that this can be an opportunity factory, but we have to care about it enough to want to serve each other, we have to care enough about our country to want to change it for the better, and that’s why we’re here.
Fanning:
Social cohesion, we’ve been talking about, Treasurer, we’ve also been talking about economic opportunity. I was in Sydney last night, saw your predecessor, Paul Keating, at the Sydney Writers Festival –
Chalmers:
I was just reading about that.
Fanning:
– who declared that the last big economic – patted you on the back for the changes to the housing tax, but basically said that’s not real economic reform – I’m paraphrasing – the last big economic reform after his and Hawke’s was John Howard’s GST. Do Australians want more than incremental change from cautious politicians? Because more and more Australians, since Bondi, have been drawn to the idea of the big bang change from shouty people like Barnaby Joyce shouting at his dog, Pauline Hanson –
Chalmers:
What’s the big bang that Barnaby’s proposing?
Fanning:
You tell me.
Chalmers:
Yeah, look, I’m not sure about that last bit, but the idea that the tax reform we’re engaged in now is minor, I think most people would contest that.
I do accept that there was tax reform 25 years ago. This is now the most ambitious tax reform in a quarter of a century that we’re engaged in. Paul, as you rightly point out, is very supportive of that. In fact, I spoke to him a lot about it before I announced it and after I announced it.
Fanning:
And yeah, I mean without getting too pointy‑headed about it, productivity, more output per worker, which is not working harder, it’s working smarter, is what creates opportunity for kids in Rolando’s youth centre.
Chalmers:
Yeah.
Fanning:
And it’s in the toilet.
Chalmers:
It has been for 2 decades.
Fanning:
It has.
Chalmers:
And that’s why we’re trying to turn it around. So in the budget that I handed down in May was the biggest, broadest productivity package we’ve seen in decades. But you don’t turn around a 2‑decade problem overnight. If there was some simple switch that you could flick to make our economy all of a sudden perfectly productive, somebody would have flicked it already.
The truth is it takes a lot of effort across a lot of reform areas. We’re engaged in that. I’ve taken some political risks to reform our economy in the way that would be familiar to Paul Keating. Because we take seriously this moment that we’re in right now. The economy is not working as well as it should. For people in an intergenerational sense, I think the biggest problem is in the housing market, and so we’ve taken some political risks to put in place some very substantial reforms to try and turn that around.
That, as it was in Paul’s day, is contested, every single day there is a campaign being run against the government and our tax reforms. And that’s fine, that price is worth paying if it makes the housing market and the tax system fairer for people, including fairer for the younger people we’ve been talking about in communities like the one that you’re visiting today.
Fanning:
Treasurer, again we’ve been talking about the changing political landscape, the changing nature of Australia. There’s been a fall in the recorded primary vote of the Labor Party from 35 to 28 per cent nationally. We saw with the Voice when you encouraged this community with such a strong First Nations population to vote yes in the referendum, and 65 per cent of them said, ‘No, Jim, I’m not going to, I’m going to vote no’; you didn’t win that argument in your own backyard.
You’ve got grumpy people on the text line, right? They say the price of everything goes up except the value of their houses, the prediction out of the Budget that, you know, the housing tax changes would only increase rents by $2 a week, I suspect that won’t age well. You love your community, but I wonder is the Australian community falling out of love with federal Labor; is there a grumpiness abroad about your stewardship of the joint?
Chalmers:
I think today’s politics represents in a legitimate way the pressures that people feel. And you know, one of the great things about Australian politics is that in most communities the federal, state and local representatives are available to people. And you get feedback of all kinds, you get nice feedback, and you get tough feedback.
Fanning:
What do people say to you?
Chalmers:
I get a lot of good feedback about the tax changes, but I get tough feedback about it as well, as you’d expect. You know, people who get their news from certain sources will often put to you things that they’ve heard on, whether it’s Sky After Dark or these sorts of outlets. And other people will raise with you in legitimate ways and welcome ways a whole range of views, and I’ve never hidden from that, ever. I never will hide from that because it’s important people have the opportunity to put stuff to me directly.
And so I know that when people are under pressure, people express that in terms of their political views. Again, I don’t dismiss that. Instead I spend all of my time trying to address those legitimate frustrations, whether they be cost of living or other kinds of frustrations, because I know they’re there. I don’t pretend that they’re not there; they are there, and in some cases they are substantial.
The choice that we have to make as politicians is, are we going to try and alleviate that, or are we going to try and use that as another thing that divides people, makes people angrier?
Fanning:
At least one more interest rate cut before the end of the year, maybe 2. I don’t expect a comment on that, but what’s your message to people, whether they think of themselves as battlers or not? It’s tough times.
Chalmers:
Yeah. My message to, whether it’s my local community that I love, or the community more broadly, the Australian community, is that we know that you’re under pressure. That’s why we are delivering real change in the tax system, in the housing market, it’s why we’re cutting income taxes 5 times, providing cost‑of‑living relief, boosting bulk billing, building Urgent Care Clinics, to strengthen Medicare. All of this is because we understand and acknowledge and recognise the pressures that people are under in every community, including this one. And our job, our responsibility and our objective is to address those legitimate concerns rather than dismiss them, like our opponents do, or to try and pick at them and prey on them like our opponents do.
Fanning:
The Treasurer in his native setting here in Logan. Thanks for coming in, Jim Chalmers.
Chalmers:
Thanks so much, Ellen, really appreciate it.