GEORGIE TUNNY:
Well, Treasurer Jim Chalmers is here to tell us you can forgive a flip. Treasurer, have you been gaslighting Australia?
JIM CHALMERS:
Of course not, what we've done today is we've explained to the Australian people why we've come to a different view about these tax cuts. We've come to a different view because we know that we can provide more tax relief for more people to help with the cost-of-living in a way that's better for middle Australia, better for young people, better for women, better for truckies and teachers and nurses, and better for the economy.
TUNNY:
But Treasurer, with respect, the last twelve months you've been telling us that you're not going to change these tax cuts.
CHALMERS:
What we've said for the last little while now is that we hadn't changed our position on these tax cuts. We have now changed our position. That's what today is all about and most importantly, we're explaining why we've got a different view. We're taking responsibility for the different view that we've come to and the reason why we've done that is because we found a more effective way to give bigger tax cuts to more people to help with the cost-of-living without pushing up inflation.
WALEED ALY:
Can you promise this is the only promise you'll break?
CHALMERS:
We've made it clear this is the one we've changed our view on.
ALY:
Is that a promise, though? Can I take that to the bank? And if I can, what happens to that bond that I've taken to the bank? Is it worth anything?
CHALMERS:
Oh, look, Waleed, I'm not going to get into the sort of the descriptions and the word games. What we're trying to say is that we're putting people before politics here and trying to get a good outcome for people. We understand we'll get questions like that one. We understand that there will be a political criticism, but you don't hear a lot of criticism about the outcome, which is what really matters. The outcome is more tax relief for more people and that's what we're focused on.
ALY:
Is political integrity and honesty just a game? Is that just the political game or is it actually something really important?
CHALMERS:
It is important and in my view, integrity and trust is all about saying to the Australian people, when you've changed your view, why you've changed your view, it's about taking responsibility, and we take responsibility for this change. It's saying to the Australian people that the most important thing for us is to do the best job we can, providing cost-of-living relief where we can in a responsible and affordable way. We know that it will invite criticism. A change of this magnitude on a contentious issue like these stage three tax cuts will always attract supporters and detractors. There will always be criticism from the usual quarters but our job is to try and make the right decisions for the right reasons and where that involves a change of policy to explain why we've changed it.
ALY:
Okay, so you say this is all about changing economic circumstances. Here's the bit I'm not clear on. What is different about the economic circumstances now when compared with all the way through last year, when you were promising over, and over, and over again that you wouldn't be making these changes, to the election campaign, when you were doing exactly that same thing, when you were rock solid on this. What is this seismic change that justifies this?
CHALMERS:
I think all of your viewers would understand, Waleed, that these cost-of-living pressures are sustained and they're persistent and any responsible government looks for better ways to provide cost-of-living relief to more people. That's what we've been able to do by changing these stage three tax cuts. These were legislated five years ago by Scott Morrison. Obviously, a lot's happened between now and then -
ALY:
Yeah, but not since the end of last year when there was 13 interest or whatever it was, interest rate rises in a row. Are you saying that cost-of-living crisis wasn't sustained all through last year? That then it was short term, but now it's long term?
CHALMERS:
Well, the rest of my answer, Waleed, was that it's become increasingly clear to us over the course of the summer that dealing with these sustained and persistent cost-of-living pressures requires a change in the stage three tax cuts.
ALY:
You are selling these also on the basis that they're fairer, that they're better for I think you said for women, they're better for low and middle income earners. If they're fairer, why wouldn't you have supported that or voted for that back in 2019? Why would you support something less fair than the policy that you're now offering? If this is a better policy, why go with a worse one?
CHALMERS:
Well, a couple of things about that Waleed. In 2019, we did actually try and split these off from the other changes to the tax system. We were unsuccessful in the Senate in doing that. Between then and recently, we have made the point that we still agree that tax relief is a good way to ease cost living pressures, and it's good for governments to give back some of this bracket creep when they can afford to do that, when it's responsible to do that. What has become increasingly clear to us leading up to this decision that we took this week to change our position, is that there's a much better way to provide the same amount of tax relief in our economy in ways that you've just described, but in a way where every taxpayer gets a tax cut. I think people will understand if we are upfront with them about why we've changed our view. We take responsibility for everything we've said before and everything that we are saying now, we take responsibility for that. When you find a better way to deliver this tax relief so that more people get a bigger tax cut, I think we got a responsibility to do that.
ALY:
There is a problem here, though, isn't there, in that stage three tax cuts were they followed? Stage one and two, they were part of a suite of changes that was designed to change the tax system over time in a long-term way. And you signed up for that. So, you apparently agreed with that objective. Now you're tinkering with this to deal with a cost-of-living crisis, which is, in the grand scheme of things, serious for a lot of people right now. But in the grand scheme of things, that's a short-term thing. And so once that's over, we're going to be stuck with this tinkering that you didn't think was meant to be part of the plan initially and is specifically designed to deal with a short term problem. Isn't that an issue? Aren't you sacrificing the long term for the short?
CHALMERS:
Not at all. Not for one second. You know, this is a better set of tax arrangements for the here and now and a better set of tax arrangements for the future as well. We don't just believe in middle Australia or low income earners or women in the workforce or younger workers, from month to month. We want to reward effort and aspiration right up and down the income scale and the tax arrangements that we've announced today are much better in that regard as well. This is infinitely better and it's a permanent, ongoing change to the tax system which will benefit people who work hard and provide for their loved ones and just want to get ahead.
SAM TAUNTON:
Okay, Jim, I'm here to help. Now, I've been caught lying a lot in my life. I lied to get this job, in fact, and I'm here right now. But I'm going to give you some tips on how to deal with it. Right. Number one, turn your phone off. Okay. That's so important. If they can't contact you, you're in the clear. Number two, change your route to work. If you avoid people. That's another one. And this is probably the most important one. Write this down if you've got a pen. Never, ever apologise. So, there's my tips. I hope that helps.
CHALMERS:
I don't quite know what to say about that. Thank you for your advice.
TAUNTON:
I'm just trying to help. I'm doing my bit, okay.
ALY:
Did you find any of those useful, Jim?
CHALMERS:
Not especially, no.
ALY:
He's not allowed to say it's useful, though, that was -- that's part of the problem.
TAUNTON:
Gosh, he's already onto it.
ALY:
It's very tricky.
TUNNY:
Treasurer. We really appreciate your time. Thank you.
CHALMERS:
I appreciate your time. Thank you.