PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST:
Jim Chalmers is the Federal Treasurer. And tomorrow actually, he'll be the Acting Prime Minister as well. Welcome back to the program.
JIM CHALMERS, TREASURER:
Thanks for having me back, Patricia.
KARVELAS:
Now, you agree that this Summit should look at the enterprise bargaining system which unions and employers say is broken. As the government, what changes do you think the system needs? What's wrong with enterprise bargaining?
CHALMERS:
Well, it hasn't delivered the kind of sustainable, consistent wages growth that we want to see in the economy. We've had almost a decade now of stagnant wages and part of the story there is the way that employers and employees come together in their common interest to try and get decent wage outcomes. And so that will be part of the Jobs and Skills Summit, but not the only part. We need to come at this big challenge we've got now from all kinds of directions. So we've got skills and labour shortages, we've got issues with stagnant wages, we've got a whole range of issues around excluded and disadvantaged communities. And for all of these reasons, we want to bring people together. There's a genuine appetite in the community to come together to try and address these big economic challenges. And that's what the Summit will be all about.
KARVELAS:
Employers have the ability to unilaterally cancel an enterprise bargaining agreement, you know, without consultation. Do you think that's fair?
CHALMERS:
I certainly think it's an issue. I mean, the tearing up of agreements has been a problem in our industrial relations architecture for some time. It's one of the reasons why I do think we need to have a look at bargaining and one of the reasons why we haven't had the wages growth that we would have liked to have seen for some time now. But again, you know, not the only issue here. There are a whole range of issues here which have combined to create what I think has been a wasted decade of missed opportunities in the economy, too much division, too much looking for the things which divide us rather than the common ground. There's more common ground in these areas than people realise. And the Jobs and Skills Summit will be about tapping that genuine appetite people have to work together. We won't be unanimous on everything, but consensus doesn't always equal unanimity. But by bringing people together, we give ourselves the best possible chance of addressing what are a tricky combination of economic circumstances in the near‑term, but just as importantly, if not more importantly, to grab the opportunities that are ahead.
KARVELAS:
Are you prepared to legislate to remove the ability of either party to be able to scrap an agreement, like you'd say, just to tear them up? And do you think that should happen by the end of the year? The ACTU says that you really need to work on this and quite urgently.
CHALMERS:
This is appropriately the policy domain of Tony Burke, my colleague, Industrial Relations Minister. And no doubt he's having conversations with employers, employees and unions, and that's what Australians would expect from him. I don't want to wander over those discussions or pre‑empt the outcome of any of those kinds of...
KARVELAS:
No, but what is your instinct? Do you think there needs to be some priority given to - it's on the front page of The Australian newspaper today - the ACTU Sally McManus saying you need to legislate to fix this and soon.
CHALMERS:
Well, I'm in the cart for industrial relations reform in the same way that I'm in the cart for making sure we've got the right skills mix, we're doing what we can on the participation front so people can return to work by making childcare more affordable. I'm in the cart for sensible migration settings, I'm in the cart for making sure that disadvantaged and excluded groups can find these opportunities when we've got low unemployment. These are all the sorts of things that we should be looking at and we will be looking at. And my job is to help Anthony Albanese convene this Summit.
Individual ministers like Minister Burke is responsible for job security and wages Minister Gallagher on women, Minister O'Neil on migration, Minister Rishworth on participation, Minister O'Connor on skills, Ministers Husic and Bowen on industry and particularly energy. We will work together in the same way that we want the broader community to work together to solve these big economic challenges before us.
KARVELAS:
Okay, but do you think that you could see legislation and change by the end of the year? Could there be a tight timeframe to try and fix some of these problems?
TREASURER:
Again Patricia, I'm not going to pre‑empt that specific outcome that you're asking me about. That's appropriately a matter for Tony and his discussions and for the Jobs Summit to wrestle with as well. But certainly, more broadly, I do think there's an opportunity from a September Jobs Summit, an October Budget another Budget in May, a White Paper soon after that. We don't need to wait if we can get agreement on some of these issues and we can get some sense of consensus, not unanimity, but consensus around some of these sorts of issues. If there's an opportunity to move quickly and that's appropriate, then we'll do that.
KARVELAS:
If you're just tuning in, I'm speaking with the Treasurer Jim Chalmers and you're listening to ABC RN Breakfast. Business wants to include a temporary two‑year increase in skilled migration to increase it to 200,000 places a year. Do you think that's reasonable?
CHALMERS:
I certainly think as we emerge from that period of COVID, where the migration tap was largely turned off, that should be an opportunity to think about the best mix of migration as the program gathers speed again. And again, that's something we're talking with business about, talking with unions and others about, community groups as well, because we've got an opportunity to get this right, to get the migration settings right. But again, I would caution people against thinking that migration is the solution to all of our economic challenges. It's part of the story, but it's not the whole story. And it shouldn't be a substitute for training Australians for roles, it shouldn't be a substitute for childcare reform and some of the other issues that I've run through.
KARVELAS:
Do you think that the so‑called targeted occupation eligibility list should be scrapped?
CHALMERS:
Again, these are matters for discussion and for the relevant minister, in this case, Clare O'Neil working with Andrew Giles and others in the broader community, business and unions and others. But clearly, we've got an opportunity here to bring people together to work out what the best migration settings are. We've had quite an unusual period when it comes to migration and as we emerge from it, we should work together to get the settings right. But what I want to make sure is, we don't see this as the one lever that you would pull to solve our issues with inflation and wages and labour shortages and skill shortages. We can get migration right without seeing it as a substitute for doing all of the other things in the economy, which will get that wages growth and fill these skills shortages and deliver the right kind of prosperity that we want to see into the future.
KARVELAS:
But right now, business is dealing with acute labour shortages. Everyone in Australia knows that. It's our lived experience of turning up to any business and limited hours being available. This is a huge issue. A temporary increase like that, do you think - while it might not deal with all of the longer‑term issues that you identify - has a place to try and deal with what are really some devastating stories that are emerging out of the economy?
CHALMERS:
First of all, I completely agree that labour shortages and skills shortages are a real handbrake on the economy. They are one of the biggest issues that we're dealing with. And I know that my colleague Clare O'Neil, working with Andrew Giles and others, is grappling with these sorts of issues. How do you get the near‑term settings right in the context of these really quite extreme challenges, we have in our workforce? And how do you have a sustainable long‑term program as well which serves our national economic interest in a way, again, that doesn't pretend that we can do everything with migration when skills and participation and childcare and investment in industries, a Future Made in Australia, the care economy, all of these other areas are just as important?
KARVELAS:
The Summit has been timed for just before the October Budget. Is that enough time to legislate ideas that come out of the Summit, given that you'll still have to negotiate it to pass it through the Senate?
CHALMERS:
Let's see what comes out of the Summit, but we shouldn't limit ourselves. I helped choose this timing deliberately because I wanted it to be far enough away that Members of Parliament and others could conduct their own roundtables locally and their own summits in particular portfolio areas or particular parts of Australia. I think that's important to make it as inclusive as we could. But I wanted it to be soon enough that if there were opportunities for the October Budget or the second Budget in May or other opportunities to legislate in the Parliament, that we give ourselves that flexibility. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves and start plugging in legislation before we've had the discussion.
Participants in the Summit are already working together to work through what kind of issues they could take to the Summit in September. We hope that there are some meaningful outcomes out of that and if there's an opportunity to legislate or include in Budgets or include in the White Paper, then we'll do what's best depending on the issues that come out of it.
KARVELAS:
The Acting Opposition Leader Sussan Ley wants this Summit cancelled. The Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor wants a seat at the table. Are you going to give him a seat at the table?
CHALMERS:
They want a seat at a table of a conference that's been cancelled...
KARVELAS:
I'm pretty certain Treasurer, you're not about to cancel it.
CHALMERS:
No, I'm not about to cancel it. They need to get their story straight. I mean, they've had a decade these characters to bring people together in the national economic interest and they haven't done it. This is an opportunity for people to be constructive and collaborative and to genuinely try and tackle issues in the economy. I'm not sure that they would fit in.
KARVELAS:
How about the independents? Will they be invited? What sort of… politically, beyond Labor ministers in the new government makes sense obviously to be working with key sectors… will you bring others in?
CHALMERS
We've given ourselves a couple of weeks to finalise the invitation list. One hundred people sounds like a lot of people until you start to work out who's in the first list and who might not be. But even for the people who aren't in the 100, we will find ways to consult with them in meaningful ways, including all parts of the Parliament, but we haven't finalised the invitation list yet. And even when it comes to the Opposition, I mean, we will consider people who want to be there on their on their merits and we are prepared to genuinely consult with the Parliament on some of these issues. They are big issues, they go beyond one party or another. A lot of them have been hanging around for the best part of a decade. And so, we need to do what we can to work together.
KARVELAS:
So you're open to inviting the Opposition still.
CHALMERS:
I haven't had that discussion with the with the Prime Minister yet. Let's see if the Opposition is actually serious. I think what you just quoted from yesterday, where one person was saying it should be cancelled and other person was insisting on being invited… let's see if they're serious first. I mean, they have had a decade to bring people together in the way that we hope to bring people together. They didn't do that. The big reason why we've had this wasted decade of missed opportunities in the economy, whether it’s energy policy chaos, or not enough Australians trained for key roles. We need to see if they're serious and they haven't shown so far that they are.
KARVELAS:
Now just finally, the Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles is warning that Australia and the US must step up to avoid a catastrophic failure in the Indo‑Pacific. Does Australia see growing Chinese influence in the Pacific as catastrophic?
CHALMERS:
We want peace and prosperity in the region and that's our overarching objective. And I think as Anthony Albanese said yesterday, we have our differences with China, but it's in both of our interests for the relationship to be stabilised. And what that inevitably means is that there will be some opportunities where we can work together and we'll do that where we can. But we will stand up for our national interest and disagree where we must. And there will be some element of both of those things as we manage what is a complex relationship. Treasurer, many thanks for joining us this morning. Thanks so much, Patricia. All the best.
KARVELAS:
That's the treasurer Jim Chalmers. And you're listening to ABC RN Breakfast. Patricia Karvelas with you.