PAUL TAYLOR:
It’s nice to have in studio in person the federal Treasurer of Australia Jim Chalmers. Good morning to you, my friend.
JIM CHALMERS:
Good morning to you Paul, thanks for having me.
TAYLOR:
Well, we’ve only met once but I feel like I’m –
CHALMERS:
We’re old mates.
TAYLOR:
Well we have met, we’re old mates, aren’t we?
CHALMERS:
That’s how Australia works.
TAYLOR:
Once upon a time I got to speak to a Prime Minister, he of the budgie smuggler fame, and now I get to speak to the federal Treasurer. How are you?
CHALMERS:
There you go. I’m really good thanks, and I wanted to shout out from the outset the wonderful people at the George Hotel for one of the best coffees I have ever had. Thank you so much.
TAYLOR:
I’ll have to go and get one now, now you’ve put that in my head. We only have Nescafe downstairs. But see the thing is, Jim, it’s free and I’m a bit of a tight person.
CHALMERS:
Oh, right. Yeah, the moths fly out of your wallet when you open it kind of guy.
TAYLOR:
Yeah, they do. I’m rather rapt that you joined us here today because today’s is a special day and, Jim Chalmers, it’s World Banana Day. So I went to our local fruit and veg, Wilsons Fruit and Veggies just up the road in Mair Street and I got you a banana.
CHALMERS:
You got me a nana.
TAYLOR:
I got you a banana for World Banana Day. Can I just say I probably, if I were you, would start to eat that because to get through this interview you’re going to need all the energy you can muster.
CHALMERS:
Oh, I see. You’re buttering me up at the start with a nana.
TAYLOR:
I’m trying to.
CHALMERS:
You know I saw that banana in front of me and I thought, ‘I wonder if Paul’s going to tuck into that while we’re talking’.
TAYLOR:
I’ve got one for me, don’t worry. There we go, we’ve got one each.
Where do we start? Well you and the Prime Minister, Mr Albo, must be, I don’t know, shaking in your boots at the moment. Coalition are ahead two‑party preferred basis, 2 points, 51 per cent. Behind in the primary vote as well, 38 to 31. It seems that Albo’s setting himself up for retirement, just bought himself a $4.3 million on the beach pad. What’s happening here, Jim?
CHALMERS:
Well I think when it comes to the opinion polls what I try and do, and I think what we try and do collectively, is we don’t get too carried away when they’re really good, we don’t get too carried away when they’re really tight. The truth is, when you’re in my line of work, you learn not to take anyone’s vote for granted, and particularly when people are doing it tough. There’s a lot going on around the world and around the country. we don’t take any outcome for granted. I think the polls are reflecting the fact that people are under pressure, and we understand that.
When it comes to the other part of your question, I work as closely if not more closely than anyone with the PM, with Anthony, and I’ve seen for myself his total focus is on how we roll out this cost‑of‑living help, how do we build more houses for people to rent and buy, how do we take some of this pressure off people where we can? And I understand there’s interest in the place that he bought. I do understand that, and I think we all understand that when you’re in our line of work, people will have an interest in those sorts of private decisions that you take. In this case, he and Jodie wanted somewhere a bit closer to Jodie’s family in that beautiful part of Australia on the Central Coast. But I want to assure your listeners and anyone who checks out our interview, I see how focused he is on the cost of living, on housing for more Australians because those are the main issues that are putting pressure on people right now, and I think that’s reflected in our politics.
TAYLOR:
Would you agree it’s bad timing on the Prime Minister’s behalf?
CHALMERS:
I’m not going to give him free advice or kind of second‑guess –
TAYLOR:
You are a money man though. Surely you can give him free monetary advice?
CHALMERS:
I don’t give him free advice about these sorts of things. He’s very fortunate that he has Jodie and Jodie’s very fortunate that she has that loving family on the Central Coast and they want to be nearer to them. I’m not pretending that people don’t have a legitimate interest in the sorts of things that Prime Ministers do.
TAYLOR:
This is the talk of Australia at the moment.
CHALMERS:
I understand that. I think he understands that too. I spent yesterday with him in my own community just south of Brisbane around Logan City. He understands that too. But really the assurance that I can give your listeners and the country beyond is, he is extremely focused on all of the things that we’re doing to try and ease some of these cost‑of‑living pressures that people are confronting. That’s his focus.
TAYLOR:
There’s a couple of things out of that answer that you’ve given me. You’ve mentioned cost‑of‑living crisis, you’ve mentioned the housing crisis. Jim Chalmers, are we still the lucky country or are we not the lucky country any more?
CHALMERS:
Well I believe you make your own luck. I’m not the first one to say that but I really believe that this country has not just an amazing history, and being in Ballarat is really to be struck by the incredible history of our country, but our future is even brighter, and when Donald Horn wrote that book about Australia being a lucky country it was tongue‑in‑cheek. He was saying we were lucky despite the leadership that was being shown at the time. And so how I think about the future of this place is I think we’ve got enormous potential, we’ve got almost limitless opportunity. It matters how we share that opportunity. And the decisions we take now about the energy transformation and how we adapt and adopt technology and how we provide good services to people and how we make sure regions like this one are part of our story of economic success, these are the big challenges that we confront. We can be more than lucky. We can be successful not by accident but by design.
TAYLOR:
I’ve got some stats that I want to give to you and throw your way which make it extremely difficult to see the brighter light here in Australia that you speak of going forward. Eighty‑five per cent of Australians, 85 per cent, are now convinced, convinced, they’ll never be able to buy their own home except maybe through the bank of mum and dad. Eighty‑five per cent.
CHALMERS:
There’s a real intergenerational element to this. I’m off to Ballarat High shortly and I anticipate that one of the questions I’ll get will be about housing because there’s a real sense in Australia, and not an unwarranted one, that it’s harder to get a toe hold in the housing market and that’s why probably the biggest, if not the biggest, and certainly one of the biggest investments we’ve been making as a government is the $32 billion we found in 3 budgets to try and build more homes. Because the best thing we can do to make it easier for people to find somewhere to rent or somewhere to buy, somewhere to raise a family, is to build more homes. We don’t have enough homes in this country. We’re starting from a long way back. We’ve got a lot of investment flowing right now and that’s really important because we need to turn this ship around.
TAYLOR:
Housing Accord, 1.2 million homes by 2029. The HIA have come out today and said we need 22,000 carpenters, 17,000 sparkies, 1,200 plumbers. Now we’re going to import a heap of doctors into the country. Should we be doing the same with our plumbers and our carpenters and our sparkies? I don’t know. Is immigration the way to go? Because once they get here they’re not going to be living in swags, they need homes to live in, don’t they, Jim?
CHALMERS:
The first priority, the most important thing we can do is train more tradies. The housing pipeline is nowhere near what we want it to be. We agree with some of the analysis from the industry and from others that says we’re starting from a long way back but that doesn’t mean you kind of throw your hands in the air and say, it’s all too hard. We’re investing a bunch of money, but we do need the tradies. We need the carpenters and the plumbers and the sparkies to be able to build these homes. And so it’s not talking out of school to say that a big part of the conversations we’ve been having with the new Housing Minister, Clare O’Neil, a proud Victorian, is how we actually build the capacity to build all these homes and the most important part of that is skills. There will be a role for migration in that but the primary role is for TAFE and training, making sure that we can get the skills that we need to build the homes that we need.
TAYLOR:
Yeah, there’s a lot of work ahead for the Albanese government, the Prime Minister saying he wants to be there for a long time to come. Is that the charter of this government, to dig in, to show Australia that we can find the light at the end of the tunnel?
CHALMERS:
That’s our objective because we want to bed down the changes that we’re making. We want to build the homes, build the skills base, all of these important things that you’ve been asking me about this morning and that sometimes takes time, takes more than one term.
If you think about the story of this government, we have done a lot, we’ve got a lot more to do, and the country has a lot to lose if we go back to the worst aspects of the government that preceded us.
We don’t pretend that we have every issue fixed in this country, but if you think about – in my part of the shop – the progress that we’ve made together, and I don’t claim 100 per cent of the credit for this, this is to Australia’s credit – we’ve halved inflation, we’ve got real wages growing again, we’ve created a million jobs in a soft economy, we’ve got tax cuts flowing to everyone, and yet we’ve still delivered a couple of surpluses and we’ve avoided $150 billion in debt which means we pay less interest on it. So we’ve made a heap of progress as a country together, working together, but we know that there is more to do and that’s why we need another term to do it.
TAYLOR:
Just quickly, direct you to a feature in our local paper, the Ballarat Courier this morning, a story that says growing numbers of Ballarat families are facing ‘relentless poverty’, quote unquote, with parents being forced to choose between buying food and paying for other essentials, including medication, bills and school costs because times are tough out there and it’s not easy. Families are suffering. I see it first‑hand. I volunteer for an organisation called the Soup Bus and the Soup Bus goes out and helps the homeless, those in need, and now it’s families in crisis who are showing up. We’ve now got a community house that I do a lot for up in Wendouree West and we are seeing more and more families come in for a feed because they simply can’t afford to put food on the table.
CHALMERS:
Yes. I don’t disagree that there are a lot of people doing it really tough, and if you think about those 3 budgets that we’ve handed down, really the most important part of those budgets, really the government’s reason for being, is in the near‑term to try and take pressure off people and in the longer term to build more opportunities for people.
If you think about the things that we’re doing which are motivated by what you’re raising with me, I don’t dispute what you’re raising with me, I see it in my own community and around Australia that people are doing it tough, so that’s why the tax cuts are so important, the energy bill relief for every household, cheaper medicines, rent assistance, cheaper early childhood education, fee‑free TAFE, getting wages moving again. All of those things are motivated by what we see with our own eyes around Australia, which is people doing it tougher than we would like them to do.
We have to get on top of this inflation and cost‑of‑living challenge and we are. We’re rolling out a bunch of help in the most responsible way that we can, but we acknowledge that even with that help that we’re rolling out, billions of dollars of assistance for people who are doing it tough, we know that that the pressures are still there and as a Labor government, we take our responsibilities to the people that you’re referencing very seriously.
TAYLOR:
I know you can’t tell the RBA what to do but in your mind how soon before we see interest rates drop?
CHALMERS:
Well the first part of your question’s right. I try not to pre‑empt or predict or second‑guess the decisions that are taken rightly and independently by the Reserve Bank. They do their job, and I do mine. My job is to help them in the fight against inflation and we made a heap of progress as a country in the fight against inflation, and they’ll weigh that up. They’ve got a meeting in November, another one in December, and then not ‘til February. I know there’s a lot of interest in that and the decisions that they might take, but I try and mind my own business and focus on what I can control and leave them to do their job.
TAYLOR:
All right, great to see the government backing the ACCC where price gouging is concerned with the supermarkets, the big 2, Woolies and Coles. How much, is it talk, is it rhetoric, that the government are now going to take the big banks to task about fees where credit and debit cards are concerned? Is it really going to happen? Are we going to see the end of that gouging when it comes to the big banks?
CHALMERS:
We don’t want to see people charged these big fees just to use their own money, that’s why our primary focus is on debit cards. Debit cards are now actually most of the payment system. I think it’s just edged over 50 per cent of payments are from debit cards, so that’s people using their own money, and you shouldn’t get slugged just to use your own money, so we do want to crack down on that.
We’ve got some work to do with the Reserve Bank and others to make sure that we do it the right way and one of the things we want to be really careful about there is the impact on small business and consumers. We want to make sure consumers and small businesses are beneficiaries of any change that we make but we are prepared to ban surcharges on debit cards subject to that work.
TAYLOR:
Jim Chalmers, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you here in person. Great to see you getting out and about and into the regional areas given you’re the federal Treasurer. I want to thank you for your time, for your candid answers and enjoy your banana on World Banana Day.
CHALMERS:
Well thanks for having me on your show, Paul, and thanks for the nana as well. I’ll eat that shortly, it looks terrific.
TAYLOR:
Thank you very much. The federal Treasurer Jim Chalmers.