Peter Fegan:
It’s Labor’s $17 billion pledge. But is it enough to save the election? The Labor Party or the government has delivered its fourth Budget last night. Plenty of savings, but given the cost‑of‑living crisis, we’re in no position to bite the hand that could potentially feed us for the next 3 years, at least. Joining me on the line is the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers. Treasurer, it is always great to have your time on the programme.
Jim Chalmers:
Thanks for having me back on your show, Pete. Good morning.
Fegan:
$268 in tax cuts in the first year, which is 2026. That’s $538 in the second. You’ve conceded, Treasurer, that that is modest cuts. It equates to about $5 a week. You add in the Stage 3 tax cuts, that will be around $56 bucks a week. So, when you consider how much groceries, fuel, beer, health, childcare, aged care is; most Australians would say that $50 bucks doesn’t go very far at all.
Chalmers:
I understand that, Pete. I understand that there’s always an appetite to do more. My job is to make sure that we’re providing this cost‑of‑living relief in the most responsible way that we can. The tax cuts are an important part of that, that $50 a week in income taxes is all about helping people but so is strengthening Medicare because more bulk billing means less pressure on families.
So are the energy rebates, the cheaper medicines, cutting student debt. There are a number of ways that we’re providing cost‑of‑living help in the Budget, but we’ve got to do that in the most responsible way. We know that there will always be calls to do more. We’re doing the most that we can afford to do for the time being.
Fegan:
Treasurer, I would argue what is missing from this Budget are tough decisions, serious structural reforms and addressing the elephant in the room. We know what that is, Treasurer. It’s spending. Now, there’s $40 billion set aside for decisions not yet announced. That means that the Prime Minister has another $40 billion up his sleeve to throw around during the election campaign. So, let’s just call this Budget what it is. It’s a Budget to win the election. Surely.
Chalmers:
I don’t agree with you, Pete. It’s a Budget to build the future and to help people with the cost of living and strengthen Medicare. Those are the 3 primary objectives of the Budget. It’s all about making our economy more resilient in the face of all this global economic uncertainty. That’s what’s motivated us here when it comes to this Budget.
Now, when it comes to spending, about half of the new spending in the Budget is the tax cuts. A big proportion of the rest of it was already provisioned for in the mid‑year Budget update. We’ve been responsible, we’ve gone for what’s affordable and we’ve done that in the context where we have taken difficult decisions. There are billions of dollars in savings.
There is much less debt this year in the Budget than when we came to office 3 years ago in terms of the $177 billion less debt this year. We are making good progress in the budget. We’re making especially good progress in the economy more broadly. We know that that doesn’t always immediately translate into how people are feeling and faring in the economy. That’s why the cost‑of‑living help is so important.
Fegan:
Migration. 260,000 new migrants will flood into Australia by the end of July, the majority of which will come into Australia. Now Treasurer, historically yes, migration does help fuel economy, we know that. But unfortunately, here in Australia we have a living crisis, we have a housing crisis.
We have a major supply issue here in Queensland. You know that, you live in Logan. You know how bad supply is at the moment. Are you putting them up? Because I don’t know where 260,000 new migrants will go. I know that they’ll work. But we’re in a housing crisis. It doesn’t make sense to me.
Chalmers:
Two important things about that, Pete. Firstly, we’re investing $33 billion in building more homes.
Fegan:
But you haven’t built any yet though, Treasurer. That’s the issue. You haven’t built any new homes yet. That’s the big issue here. You can invest all your money, all the money you want. You can’t put them in camps until they’re built.
Chalmers:
We are building new homes. We’re making a very substantial investment in making sure that’s the case. Secondly, you refer to those migration numbers. Those migration numbers have actually been very substantially managed down from their peak after COVID. When Australia more or less shut down during COVID in the year or 2 after that, couple of years after that, there was a big rebound in the net overseas migration number spanning 2 governments.
We’ve been able to manage that down to more normal levels. That is what you’re seeing in the budget. That number that you refer to is right, but it is much lower, very, very substantially lower than it was a couple of years ago.
Fegan:
Okay, Treasurer, this is an interesting one and I think all eyes will be on this when it comes to the election.
Let’s talk energy.
Okay, Treasurer, the Prime Minister and yourself and all your Ministers all maintain that energy prices are lower under a Labor government. So, why has the government, if that’s the case – if we are paying less for energy, why has the government spent $6.8 billion on energy subsidies to date? Is that not an abject failure of the last 3 years? And your energy policy, why give Australians another $150 bucks if, according to Labor, energy is affordable? I don’t understand it. I mean, if it is affordable, I don’t need the $150 bucks.
Chalmers:
This is another important way that we’re helping people with the cost of living. We know that in the last year in the official inflation data, we were able to get electricity prices down. That’s a good thing. That’s been a combination of rebates, but also the efforts that we’re making to introduce more cleaner and cheaper energy into the system.
If you think about the independent experts from a body called AEMO, what they talk about is what’s pushing electricity prices up is actually the old parts of the system, the traditional parts of the system, becoming less and less reliable.
We’re providing these energy rebates in the near term to take some of the sting out of these electricity bills while people are under cost‑of‑living pressure. At the same time, we’re introducing more cleaner and cheaper, more reliable energy into the system because that’s the best way to put downward pressure on energy prices over the medium and long term.
Fegan:
Yeah, there’s no. But there’s no funding for green energy. There’s no funding for net zero.
Chalmers:
That’s not true, Pete.
Fegan:
Well, there’s no extra funding. Is there, in this Budget? Is there extra investment in –
Chalmers:
Yeah, there’s some extra investment out of an innovation.
Fegan:
How much?
Chalmers:
For about one and a half billion, I think from memory.
Fegan:
But it’s not in Budget. Is it in Budget papers released?
Chalmers:
Yeah, it’s in the Budget papers. We’ve also recapitalised the Clean Energy Finance Corporation because that’s playing an important role as well, financing cleaner and cheaper energy.
I accept your broader point. Electricity prices are a pressure on family budgets we’re seeing around the world. We’re not immune from that. The energy bill rebates are an important, responsible way that we take some of the edge off that while we introduce more cleaner and cheaper, and more reliable energy into the system.
Fegan:
Treasurer, why should Australians trust Anthony Albanese and Jim Chalmers for another 3 years?
Chalmers:
I think after the Coalition’s brain explosion on tax last night, the choice at the election is becoming absolutely crystal clear now. We’re helping people as a Labor government with the cost of living by cutting their taxes. Peter Dutton has an agenda of secret cuts which will make people worse off. Now, Peter Dutton wants to cut everything except people’s taxes, and that’s really the contest which was set up last night when Angus Taylor, quite bizarrely, said that he would oppose our cost‑of‑living help.
What we’ve seen over the course of the last 3 years is every time we’ve tried to help people with the cost of living, our opponents have opposed that. Peter Dutton and Angus Taylor have both said the best predictor of future performance is past performance. They have opposed cost‑of‑living help; they’re opposing these cost‑of‑living tax cuts in the Budget last night.
I think that sets up a very clear choice. If people want a Labor government helping with the cost of living, managing the budget responsibly, investing in building Australia’s future, they can choose that over Peter Dutton, who has secret cuts which will make people worse off, and that’s because he wants to cut everything except taxes.
Fegan:
Do you accept that Australians don’t trust you?
Chalmers:
I don’t necessarily accept that, Pete. I mean, that’s a judgement for people to make. I understand that, and it’s something that journalists and commentators can speculate about. What we did last night was keep faith with the Australian people and do justice to the progress and the sacrifices that they have made. Together as Australians, we’ve made a lot of progress in our economy. We’ve got –
Fegan:
But a trillion dollars in debt. A trillion dollars, though, Treasurer?
Chalmers:
It’s $177 billion this year lower than what it was when we came to office for this year. That’s a really important thing. You will read a lot of stuff in the papers about debt and deficits. Don’t forget, we delivered 2 surpluses, we shrunk the deficit, we got the debt down, we’re saving on interest costs.
Fegan:
But it’s still a trillion dollars. You grilled the former government on this. It’s still a trillion dollars. And I know it’s not all your fault, but it’s a trillion dollars. We’ve got kids that need to buy homes in 20 years’ time.
Chalmers:
That’s why we’re investing substantially in housing, $33 billion program. On the debt, don’t forget, we would have already had a trillion dollars of debt under our opponents. It’s $177 billion lower this year. I think that’s too easily dismissed and diminished the progress we’ve made in the budget. Same goes for the progress we made in the economy together as Australians.
As I was saying a moment ago, we’ve got growth rebounding solidly in our economy: inflation down, real wages up, unemployment is low, interest rates have started to be cut, we’ve got the debt down. This is good progress, and we would be crazy to interrupt that progress with Peter Dutton’s secret cuts which would make Australians worse off.
Fegan:
What’s happening with the Coalition at the moment, Treasurer? Seems to be some rumblings. I hear or see reports yesterday that Peter Dutton had to lay down the law, that David Littleproud got pretty fired up.
Chalmers:
Yeah, they got fired up because basically the Coalition members and senators are forming an orderly queue to say that Angus Taylor’s not up to the job. It’s quite bizarre that Angus Taylor’s asking Australians to take him seriously when his own colleagues don’t. He’s been found out and he’s been found wanting.
I think genuinely, it was a proper brain explosion we saw last night when he said, at a time when people are under cost‑of‑living pressures, they won’t support our tax cuts to help people meet the cost of living. I think that was a bizarre decision. I think it will come back to haunt him, and I think his colleagues will have a view about it behind the scenes.
Fegan:
Treasurer, you’re on the front page of every paper today, but can I just say congratulations to you because you are drinking out of a Brisbane Broncos mug. How good is that?
Chalmers:
I get a bit of feedback about that. Mostly from Dolphins, mostly from people –
Fegan:
Well, do you know what? You’re still a staunch. You’re still a staunch Bronco supporter. Right?
Chalmers:
Pick and stick. Absolutely.
Fegan:
Thank you.
Chalmers:
Broncos until I die, Pete.
Fegan:
Because I see that Peter Dutton has changed his tune a little bit. He’s now, well, Dolphins is in his electorate. A little bit of his electorate. Well, I don’t know.
Chalmers:
Right. I’m not sure about that. In fairness to him, I’m not sure about that. I’m certainly, I will always be a very enthusiastic supporter of the Brisbane Broncos. I still remember their first game in the comp in 1988 as a little tacker. I’m looking forward to watching the Battle of Brisbane on Friday night. Always a good contest.
Fegan:
Go the Broncos. Yeah, exactly. Go the Broncos. Good on you, Treasurer. Great to have your company this morning.
Chalmers:
Nice to talk to you again, Pete. All the best.
Fegan:
There he is, the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers.