RAF EPSTEIN:
Treasurer Jim Chalmers, good morning.
JIM CHALMERS:
Good morning, Raf. Thanks for having me back on the show.
EPSTEIN:
Do you think he's got any credibility left? The Prime Minister?
CHALMERS:
Of course. I think that you build credibility by showing leadership. He's showing leadership here and you build trust by taking the right decisions for the right reasons in the interests of the people. When you come to a different view, and we have come to a different view about these stage 3 tax cuts, you explain why you have, and that's what we're doing today.
EPSTEIN:
But how on earth are we going to know when you've changed your mind? Straight after the last election, I asked the Prime Minister, any changes in negative gearing? "No." And then I asked him, any changes to stage 3? He said, "No, because I will do what I say I will do." How on earth do we know when you're going to change your mind?
CHALMERS:
I think what's important here is that we have come to a different view. We've been upfront about that. We're not walking away from those earlier comments. We've always said tax relief is a good way to provide cost‑of‑living help. We said it's good for governments to give back bracket creep when it's responsible and affordable to do that and we’ve just found a better way to go about it. I think people understand that a lot has happened in the five years since Scott Morrison legislated these tax cuts. I think people definitely understand these persistent and sustained cost‑of‑living pressures that people are confronting. And so, in all of that ‑‑
EPSTEIN:
But inflation was worse? The first six months of your government inflation was worse. Why didn't you change your view then?
CHALMERS:
Because it has been higher than we'd like, for longer than we'd like. It's persistent and sustained and it became increasingly clear to us that we needed to do more for middle Australia in particular. What these tax cuts mean is a bigger tax cut for more people to help with these cost‑of‑living pressures and I think people understand that when the economic circumstances change, the economic policies need to change too and that's what we're doing here. Importantly, Raf, and I think people understand this too what we really need to do here is put people before politics. We know that we are going to get a lot of political commentary and a lot of political heat, but it's most important that we do the right thing. You don't hear people arguing against this policy change on its merits. There's all the usual political commentary and the mindless negativity from Michael Sukkar and others.
EPSTEIN:
No but you refused to say that you were even looking at these things. A tonne of people that support you, a lot of the groups and the commentators that support you have been saying you should do this since you were in Opposition. Wouldn't it have been the honest thing to do to say we're looking at our options?
CHALMERS:
Well, I think whenever people put those views, I think I may have said to you on earlier occasions, certainly to your colleagues and counterparts in the media, we respect the views that people put to us, and we hadn't changed our position until the Cabinet changed it on Tuesday of this week. The Prime Minister has said publicly, he asked us for options over the course of Christmas, over the course of summer and it just became increasingly clear to us, Raf, that if we're serious about providing additional cost‑of‑living relief with an emphasis on middle Australia, then this is the best way to do it. I think when you change your view, as we have, we're not walking away from that, we have changed our view here, this is a different position, we own that and we understand that. We're explaining to people why we've got to a better outcome which benefits more people.
EPSTEIN:
Most people don't earn 150 grand or more, but most people would like to. If you effectively say to those people, you're not getting as much, have you lost a seat like Dunkley?
CHALMERS:
This is not about the politics, particularly the politics of a by‑election. We're taking a difficult decision here, but it’s the right decision. But your point is really a point about aspiration and one of the things I find frustrating, Raf, is that our political opponents and some of their friends in the commentariat, they want to say that you're only entitled to aspiration in this country if you're already on a good wicket. If you're on a good wicket, I say, that's terrific, that's terrific. But all Australians are aspirational. The nurses and truckies and teachers who will be the big beneficiaries of what we're proposing today, they are aspirational too. People on higher incomes will still get a tax cut under our proposal today, they'll still get a decent tax cut and that's important as well. Our goal here isn't to set Australians against each other. Our goal is to give every taxpayer a tax cut with an emphasis on middle Australia, but right up and down the income scale. That's because we understand and recognise something that our critics don't and that is all Australians are aspirational, not just those who are already doing pretty well.
EPSTEIN:
But those people who feel like they are doing it really tough. I acknowledge most people aren't on 150 grand, but they are crucial votes. Are you saying to me you're not worried about the political implications of your decision?
CHALMERS:
It's not been a factor, Raf, because we know it's politically difficult to change a position. We know that a decision of this magnitude will have its supporters and its detractors, and we know that there will be commentators who are more interested in helping the Coalition than helping middle Australia. Our job is to get to the right outcome. We've done that and because it's a change of position, our job is also to explain why. And that's what I'm doing now and that's what the Prime Minister will be doing at the National Press Club today.
EPSTEIN:
You're not worried about people saying to you on the campaign trail, Jim, how can I trust anything you say, I never know when you're going to change your mind?
CHALMERS:
I'd be more worried, Raf, if we took the wrong decision because we were afraid of the politics. We are here to put people before politics. We understand it's contentious, we understand that people will say things about it, but more important than all of that, infinitely more important than the politics of it, is helping people with the cost‑of‑living. We found a way to give a bigger tax cut to more people without adding to inflation in our economy and having found that way to do it, it's our responsibility to proceed. But also, as I'm doing now, I understand we have to explain why we've come to a different view.
EPSTEIN:
I realise you've got to go in a minute or so, but if you're about being honest and open right here, right now, no changes to negative gearing, no changes to capital gains on housing, never ever?
CHALMERS:
It's not something that we've been working on or focused on or thinking about. Our tax reform agenda is already a pretty full book with the PRRT, super concessions, multinational tax reform, tax compliance, tobacco, and now these really important changes to the income tax scales.
EPSTEIN:
But that was the same answer to the stage 3 thing and then you changed your mind?
CHALMERS:
I'm explaining to you why we've come to a different view on income tax. We haven't come to a different view on those other examples you've given.
EPSTEIN:
Really appreciate your time, Treasurer. Thanks a lot.
CHALMERS:
Appreciate your time, Raf. All the best.