SARAH FERGUSON:
Treasurer Jim Chalmers joins me now from Canberra. Treasurer, welcome to the program.
JIM CHALMERS:
Thanks very much, Sarah.
FERGUSON:
You're going to go ahead and legislate for multi-employer bargaining despite business critics who say that this will open the way for many small businesses to be unionised leading to strikes and the potential to shut down key parts of the of the economy.
CHALMERS:
Obviously, I don't agree with that conclusion. But it's equally true to say that the whole business community is not in favour of multi-employer bargaining. The small business lobby is interested in progressing this idea and elements of big business as well, but there's not unanimity about the way forward here. We've said all along that that's not our objective. Our objective is to try and find sufficient common ground on ways to make the enterprise bargaining system work better for workers and for employers - whether it's multi-employer bargaining, whether it's ways to simplify the existing tests in the interests of business and workers, then we will progress those ideas because we've got to get stagnant wages moving again. They've been stagnant for the best part of a decade and that means Australian workers are falling further and further behind. The difference between us and our predecessors is we think that's a problem.
FERGUSON:
Understood. But let me ask you this, though - you say that there is some agreement but there is still very fierce opposition. If these moves do lead to industrial disputes and strikes, isn't there a political risk here for you?
CHALMERS:
I don't see it in political terms, I see it in economic terms. And more specifically, one of the most important things that we can do in our economy is to get wages moving again in a strong and sustainable way. And one way we do that is to modernise bargaining in the interest not just of workers, but also of employers as well.
There'll be a lot of consultation which Tony Burke, flagged today, including with some of the employer groups who have raised their concerns. We listen respectfully to those concerns when they're raised but we intend to proceed down this path because we can't have more of the same wage stagnation which has been a feature of the economy for the best part of a decade. That has been a recipe for Australian working families to fall further and further behind and that is a key economic challenge that we can't ignore.
FERGUSON:
You just said that you don't see this politically but of course, that political calculation must be part of your own calculation. Are you worried now that the Opposition - with the backing of serious industry players - will mark this as a battle line for future elections?
CHALMERS:
No, I actually see it in a very different way, Sarah. This is how I see it - we took a risk, a political risk, if you like, in saying to people from all corners of Australia and all parts of our economy, come to Canberra and let's see what we can achieve by working together. And we didn't heavily choreograph that. We knew that there would be different views and sometimes there would be contentious views put. There would even be tense moments as I flagged in my speech to the Summit this morning. And that's okay because the alternative is to prolong this decade of division which has weakened our economy and made our people poorer.
The way that Anthony Albanese sees this, the way his Government sees it and I think the way the Australian community see it is - let's see what we can achieve together. Some things we won't agree on unanimously but there is, I think, a sense of common purpose in the people assembled here. They do want to see what we can achieve together by bringing people together around our big economic challenges. And in that regard, I'm absolutely delighted with how today's gone. And I'm looking forward to tomorrow's discussion as well.
FERGUSON:
Is this Summit the moment where union membership starts to rise again after being given a leg up by your Labor Government?
CHALMERS:
That remains to be seen. Certainly we think that one of the issues that has been leading to the wage stagnation that we've seen for too long is a decline in the relative influence of working people. And the enterprise bargaining system has been where we've seen some of those outcomes that we haven't supported over the best part of a decade. And so we want to make sure that we can all succeed together - employers and workers alike.
We're obviously - in the Labor Party - supportive of people joining unions, that's a good thing. We want to see unions represented in the national economic conversation but not at the expense of anyone else. We want to bring everyone together. And that's what we've done in this Jobs and Skills Summit. We're delighted with the progress made today and we think that this could be a defining feature of Anthony Albanese's Government - taking these risks, getting people around the table and seeing what we can agree, seeing what common ground can be found.
FERGUSON:
The opposition to the idea, though, hasn't really gone away today. Does that suggest that you didn't really need broad consensus at all?
CHALMERS:
I think there is broad consensus that the bargaining system is broken...
FERGUSON:
Yes but you've got people saying this could lead to a shutdown in key parts of the economy. That's not consensus.
CHALMERS:
I don't accept that analysis, but equally, I will defend the rights of different groups to raise their opinions. We would prefer people raise their opinions, rather than keep them to themselves. That's how good policy is made, to understand the various views that are around, the diversity of opinions that exist in this country. It would be very strange to host the Jobs Summit, where everybody had to sign up in advance to having an identical view. That's not the point of the Summit, that's not the point of the Government. Our job, our objective, our task, is to see whether there is sufficient common ground. There is here and so we'll move forward.
FERGUSON:
Let me just ask you this. You conceded today, the need to change the better off overall test. That was a policy introduced by Julia Gillard as Minister in the Rudd Government. Was it all was just a bad policy?
CHALMERS:
I don't think it was, but I think the way it is currently written is not sufficiently simple, or fair, or flexible enough for workers and for business. And I think that's a good example, Sarah, of where the Government has had an historical view. And we've listened carefully to employers and workers, who said that we can do better here, we can actually improve the better off overall test. And so our position on that evolved, I think that's a good thing. That's what people expect from us, is to listen to people that genuinely take those views on board. We had a situation where the business community and the union movement, and the broader community thought that we can do better here. And it would be strange if we ignored that.
FERGUSON:
You've rejected calls to bring forward childcare subsidies. These are subsidies that you accept, will have a big dividend for the economy. And you've said you can't do that because of budget rules, but you've also said that you want this Budget to be a well-being budget for Australia. Isn't this exactly the kind of thing that a well-being budget can do, that it allows, which is spending now that can be accounted for down the track?
CHALMERS:
Of course, investing in Australian parents and particularly Australian mums, in a way that eases people's cost of living pressures and delivers a massive dividend.
FERGUSON:
We know, we think it's a good thing. This is a very precise question about your call for a well-being budget that you wanted Australia to look at the New Zealand model, and go with a well-being budget, that gives you the ability to pay for something now and account for it down the track. Why not do that with this, clearly very high priority?
CHALMERS:
And that's the rest of my point Sarah, is that we do want to invest in people's well-being and that's why we've got this $5 billion game-changing policy, which will deliver a dividend and people's homes, and a dividend in the broader national economy. I just want to be upfront with people that there are heaps of good ideas, including ideas that we've heard here today. Ideas that you would support enthusiastically if you were absent of fiscal constraints that we've inherited from our predecessors.
FERGUSON:
Why not use the system, why not use the system to help you, if you're talking about budget rules, preventing you from doing it, but you're also talking about a new way of looking at the budget that enables you to do just that.
CHALMERS:
Yeah, and I'm motivated by the stance, that we should measure what really matters in our economy. And one of the things that really matters is women's economic participation and equal opportunity. And that's why I'm going to budget for a childcare policy, which will cost around $5 billion in the October budget, to deliver all the benefits and all of the dividends that we've been talking about. What's being discussed here, is the difference between one January and one July, we did have a good look at bringing it in in one January. But I've got to be conscious of the fiscal situation, my commitment to your viewers is to always be upfront about that. And that means doing what we can afford to do, amongst all of the good ideas that are pitched up to us. We will progress what we can, in the most responsible way that we can, and when this comes in, it will be a game-changer for Australian parents.
FERGUSON:
You just choose other things for the immediate priority?
CHALMERS:
They will come in in July, they will come in at the beginning of the next financial year, which is not that far away. It will come in at the first change of financial year. It'll be in the October Budget, which will be my first Budget. It will be one of the centrepieces of that Budget. I don't think anybody could objectively argue that we haven't made childcare a priority. That's why it's our biggest on-budget commitment in the whole budget so far. And that's because we believe in it, and listening to people at this Jobs and Skills Summit today, Sarah, there was full throated agreement that this is one of the best things that we can do, in an economy which has got these skills and labour shortages, has got these challenges around women's participation in the economy. That's why we're proud of the policy, and I'll be proud to budget for in October, and bring it in on the first of July.
FERGUSON:
Treasurer, we saw from Laura's program that you've had a very long day. Thank you very much indeed for joining us and good luck tomorrow.
CHALMERS:
Thanks for the opportunity Sarah.