FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, today marks the 76th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp. Both you and your wife, Amie, lost relatives in the Holocaust. How important is it to tell the story of what happened before those who bore witness are gone? Is that the driver for the building of a museum like this?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Absolutely. The Holocaust was not just a crime against the Jewish people, it was a crime against humanity; Sinti, Roma, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah’s Witnesses, political and religious leaders, all fell foul of the brutal Nazi killing machine, as well as six million Jews, including, tragically, heartbreakingly, 1.5 million Jewish children. If we were to observe a minute’s silence, Fran, for every victim that silence would go for eleven years. Now, as you say, survivors are passing by and, with time, memories fade, events are forgotten, there is historical revisionism in some parts of the world and some countries and that’s why reminding everyone today of that tragic chapter in world history is so important.
FRAN KELLY:
It is being forgotten. Antonio Guterres says almost two-thirds of young Americans have no idea that six million Jewish people were killed in the camps. Do you think it’s much different in this country? Are we failing to educate young people about the Holocaust?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I think we can do more. I congratulate the Andrews Government for ensuring that all school students in years nine and ten are taught about the Holocaust…
FRAN KELLY:
Should it be part of every curriculum?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
In New South Wales, they’re also ensuring students are taught. I think it needs to be done in other states and I congratulate the Marshall Government for recently supporting the establishment of a Holocaust museum there, and the Palaszczuk Government and the McGowan Government. We are seeing across the country a network of Holocaust museums being established. But don’t forget US General Dwight Eisenhower, when he was commanding those allied forces, and he came across those concentration camps in 1945, he said upon those horrific images he saw, he said there would come a time where people denied this ever took place. That is why remembering and honouring the past and the innocence we lost is so important.
FRAN KELLY:
You’ve co-written an OpEd today with Labor MP, Josh Burns. You say we’ve seen the consequences of ignorance and hate and the crimes that begun with dehumanising one’s fellow countrymen, we need to work together to prevent historical revisionism ever taking hold. That’s what we’re talking about here. Are you concerned about historical revisionism here in Australia?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
There are some people who obviously deny the Holocaust, but what I am also concerned about is the rise in anti-Semitism, and in racism, in parts of the country. We have seen swastikas daubed in schools, on advertising for theatre productions of Anne Frank, even and across some businesses that are owned by Jewish Australians. So we have seen a rise in that anti-Semitism and I think an understanding of the Holocaust, but also the importance of tolerance and diversity across our community is really important. I share with you this very powerful quote from Lutheran pastor, Martin Niemoller, who said after the Holocaust “first they came for the socialists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. And then they came for me and no one was left to speak up for me.” I think that is the message here; it doesn’t matter if you’re Jewish or non-Jewish, understanding the Holocaust and learning the lessons of the past is critical to a better future for us all.
FRAN KELLY:
Is that all tied up with what Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General, describes as a casualty of a global attack on truth. He says the COVID pandemic has triggered another eruption of Holocaust denial and white supremacy. Is that about anti-Jewish sentiment or a global attack on truth that has reduced the role of science and fact-based analysis?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Certainly, those who deny the existence of the Holocaust or downplay the extent of it, are denying facts, are denying the truth…
FRAN KELLY:
But do we have a rising culture of denial of truth and demonising experts across a range of areas?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
You do see it. We do need to call it out when it does occur. But, in terms of understanding of the Holocaust, I think the facts are very clear. It was a tragedy that was unprecedented in its proportions. But there has also been other genocides across the world. I’m thinking of Darfur, I’m thinking of Rwanda and Cambodia, of course, and elsewhere. I think it’s important when we understand the Holocaust to also understand those other genocides.
FRAN KELLY:
The recent invasion of Capital Hill in Washington, some of the mob were wearing shirts emblazoned with just disgraceful slogans like “Camp Auschwitz” and “6MWE” which stands for six million wasn’t enough. I wonder what your visceral reaction was when you saw that?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Frightening. Despicable. Disgusting. You know, to see that in the nation of the United States in their capital was truly frightening. I think it should, for all of us, should send a very chilling message that we need to re-double our efforts Fran, and to ensure that we say ‘never again.’
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, we’re in the midst of a ritual debate over Australia Day. What is your view? Should it be moved from the 26th of January, given your family background, does it give you a deeper understanding or a keener sympathy for what that date might mean for First Australians? The day they landed; their people, their culture came under attack?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
The first thing I would say is I acknowledge that that day is a source of pride and also pain for Australians. There has been dispossession, there has been separation and I understand that it is one of mixed feelings for many people. But the 26th of January, and Australia Day more broadly, commemorates much more than the arrival at Sydney Cove of the British back in 1788, it tells the broader and longer Australian story, starting with our First Australians who were here for 60,000 plus years before and goes as recently as yesterday when we saw more than 12,000 Australians become our newest citizens from more than 130 countries…
FRAN KELLY:
You could tell that story on any day. It doesn’t have to be the day that marks the arrival of the British colonisers…
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I’ve seen both what Ken Wyatt and Linda Burney, Liberal and Labor spokespeople have said, and obviously they speak from the heart and they’re people of Indigenous heritage. They talk about the importance, not of the day in which it’s held, but how we are commemorating it. I think that’s really important. Noel Pearson has also spoken, Fran, about that broader Australian story being a fusion of our amazing heritage, our ancient heritage he calls it, our British inheritance but also our multicultural triumph. I think that’s where the focus should be on celebrating who we are and what we’ve achieved.
FRAN KELLY:
I wanted to ask you too on the backlash to Margaret Court’s elevation to Companion of Order of Australia, the council which hands out the award said it did so purely on the basis of her tennis achievements to give her the same level of recognition as tennis great, Rod Laver. Her comments on gay and transgender people have nothing to do with it. But the fact is that Margaret Court did make those comments, highly offensive and divisive comments. Is she a worthy Companion?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Firstly, I completely disagree with those statements that she has made. But this is an independent process of us in Government…
FRAN KELLY:
I know, but do you have a view on it?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
My view is that you should be qualified for it, not based on your social views or your political views or your religious views, but on your achievements in that particular field. And in her case, it’s in tennis; and with 24 Grand Slam wins and the International Tennis Hall of Fame, so we’ve never seen, she was the greatest male or female tennis player of her time. And you remember, Fran; Mike Carlton, Bettina Arndt, there were debates about whether they should have got it because of some of their views, but at that time, the Council of the Order of Australia put out a statement and said you are not qualified or disqualified for these positions or for these acknowledgments based on your views outside your defined area.
FRAN KELLY:
Okay. Let’s go to the economy. You are the Treasurer. The IMF has upgraded its global growth forecast to 5.5 per cent, but it cautions there’s still “exceptional uncertainty in the outlook”. You have said you expect the Australian economy to be back to its pre-COVID levels by later this year which is great news. But it all depends, doesn’t it, on the rollout of the vaccine. Australia getting enough doses; and the vaccines being effective against the new strains. Our economy is still at the whim of the health crisis and the vaccine, isn’t it?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well this has always been primarily a health crisis with a very severe economic impact, and the fact that our economy is recovering and the jobs are coming back to significantly - 90 per cent of the 1.3 million Australians who either lost their jobs or had their working hours reduced to zero at the start of the crisis are now back at work - is a function of us getting the virus under control. And you’re right, the vaccine and its rollout is going to be critical to maintaining that momentum. I do point out though that the IMF just last night said that the global economy is strengthening and when you compare the forecasts for a fall in growth in 2020 in countries like Spain - of 11 per cent, or the UK - of 10 per cent, or France and Italy - of 9 per cent, or indeed in Germany, Canada, and Japan of 5 plus per cent, and here in Australia - just 2.5 per cent, you can see how fortunate we are to be in the position we are.
FRAN KELLY:
But again it all depends on the vaccine, doesn’t it? The European Union has now announced it’s going to slap export controls on vaccines produced within its borders. That includes much of the Pfizer vaccine. Is that likely to affect the 10 million doses Australia is buying from Pfizer that’s produced in Belgium? What about the 4 million doses coming from AstraZeneca?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, Greg Hunt as the Health Minister has said based off what we know today that is not expected to change the arrival dates for those vaccines…
FRAN KELLY:
Are you worried about the EU for instance putting on export controls?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, obviously we wouldn’t welcome that because, as the World Health Organisation has said, the vaccine needs to be spread as broadly and as widely as possible. And that’s why the Morrison Government is playing a key role in helping to get the vaccine to our Pacific neighbours as well as immunisation across the country.
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer just one final question. The IMF report also pointed to increased inequality caused by the pandemic. According to Oxfam this week too, the world’s top one thousand billionaires have already recovered all the wealth they lost in the crisis but it could take more than a decade for the world’s poorest people to recover from the economic impacts. Here in Australia, 31 billionaires have seen their fortunes increase by nearly $85 billion since the pandemic began. Oxfam is warning that when JobKeeper and the JobSeeker supplement end in March that we “stand to witness the greatest rise in inequality in Australia since records began”. Will you allow that to happen on your watch? On JobSeeker, will you allow it to fall back to $40 a day?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, the facts actually tell a different story. That the money that we have been spending in unprecedented amounts, and you reference JobKeeper and, of course, JobSeeker, but also all the other payments, have actually seen the bottom 10 per cent income percentile see their incomes increase by 20 per cent since the start of the crisis…
FRAN KELLY:
Yeah, but they’re going to drop back.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
But the focus for us is on jobs. Because if we can get people into work, then obviously we can get them security of income. That’s where our focus has been.
FRAN KELLY:
Will JobSeeker go back to $40 a day?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, again, we’ll make decisions and announcements about those matters, one way or another, before that date.
FRAN KELLY:
Okay. Just briefly before I let you go too. The Nationals are calling for new coal fired power stations to support Australian manufacturing. You’re the Treasurer. Will the Government ever subsidise coal generators?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Our focus has always been technology neutral in our approach. Technology, not taxes. And decisions about coal fired power stations and their futures are going to be commercial ones. From the Government’s perspective what we have sought to do…
FRAN KELLY:
So that’s a no?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
… what we have sought to do…. Well, we’re not about to do that. We’re not about to fund a new coal fired power station. What we are about to do, what we are in the process of doing, is encouraging security of supply, more affordable power, and reducing our carbon footprint.
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, thank you very much for joining us.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Thank you.