FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, welcome back to Breakfast.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
It’s my pleasure, Fran, and can I first start by saying congratulations on an outstanding career. Your dulcet tones have been heard around millions of kitchen tables across the country. And you’ve always been measured, you’ve always been reassuring. You’ve been fair – we may not always agree with the question or the premise of the question, but over 17 years you’ve been an outstanding journalist, and I can understand, Fran, why you may not want to wake up at 3.30 in the morning for some time yet. But I really wish you all the very best for your next endeavours.
FRAN KELLY:
Thank you very much, Treasurer. Yeah, it’s only the early mornings; everything else is terrific. So thank you. Well, let’s get to some hopefully measured, fair questions, and tough ones. Let’s talk about this pandemic – 70 per cent of Australia’s population 16 and over is now fully vaccinated. Your hometown of Melbourne, which has been really on the frontline of this pandemic will reopen from midnight after another long, gruelling shutdown. Is this mission accomplished for Australia? Does this signal the health crisis at least is over? Is that how you see it?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
No, I don’t, but this is terrific news for the people of Victoria who obviously endured so much over the course of this pandemic. And it’s going to be really welcome that people can go and visit their friends and can go out more freely. Obviously we’ve still got to reach the 80 per cent double‑dose vaccination rate – which hopefully is not that far away – and with it more restrictions being eased. But what we’ve seen in New South Wales is that once those vaccination rates have been hit, the number of cases actually started to come down and, importantly, the economy has opened up. The kids are getting back to school and people are getting their freedoms.
FRAN KELLY:
Your home state has been the most locked down in the world. It’s now emerging, thankfully. You want more. You’re calling on the Victorian government to give people the same freedoms as people in New South Wales. Is that because more freedom means more economic activity? Do you see this through the eyes of a Treasurer? Because after such a long lockdown, Melbournites, some might prefer to go a bit more slowly so the whole show doesn’t clamp down again. What are you hearing from the people around you in Melbourne?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, firstly, today’s a day of celebration for Victorians because this is their reward for an outstanding effort, as you say, in getting the jabs in record numbers. So the fact that in Victoria you’ve seen around a 90 per cent first‑dose vaccination rate, that’s higher than the United Kingdom. And if they were a country Victoria would be the 12th most vaccinated in the OECD on that basis. So that’s a really pleasing outcome. Look, it’s not just me; you’ve also seen medical experts like Professor Nick Coatsworth, the former Deputy Chief Medical Officer, you saw Professor Catherine Bennett yesterday, the Chair of Epidemiology at Deakin University. And what they’ve said is that with respect to New South Wales and Victoria, they’re similar enough that they could move out of lockdown at the same vaccination target determined pace. And there is a difference in the restrictions having been eased in New South Wales and Victoria, and my only point was a factual one, which is I hope that Victorians can enjoy the same freedoms as those in New South Wales.
FRAN KELLY:
And you’re speaking as Treasurer privately to the Treasurer or even the Premier of Victoria urging them to do that?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I’m speaking as a Victorian, a very proud Victorian. I’m speaking as a dad who’s seen my child out of the classroom for 220 days. That’s more than a full school year that’s been lost out of the classroom. And that obviously has a very significant impact on kids’ educational development but also their personal development. And I’m speaking as a federal representative in the parliament and as a Treasurer who sees the economic damage that has been caused by the lockdowns. Now, those lockdowns have obviously seen the federal government dig deep. We’ve already delivered more than $50 billion to the people of Victoria, households and businesses. We continue to provide those COVID disaster payments. We continue to provide the business support to help households and businesses get to the other side of this pandemic. But it’s very clear that once restrictions are eased businesses’ doors reopen, they start rehiring and people’s jobs come back.
FRAN KELLY:
And what about Australia’s doors? You’ve revealed the federal government’s rethinking the size and the mix of the migration program which shuddered to a halt over the past couple of years. The OECD is warning that Australia won’t see the same rate of living standard improvements over the next two decades unless we make up lost ground in terms of immigration numbers. The global ratings agency Fitch says the economy will be $40 billion smaller than it otherwise would have been by 2026 because of the drop in migrant numbers through the pandemic. How big an Australia are you eyeing off?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, you’ve got to be very conscious of the fact, that, you know, immigration, I think makes our country stronger. It’s a source of obviously cultural diversity, which is important, but it’s also a source of skills, and it helps –
FRAN KELLY:
Yes, but before the pandemic the Morrison government had capped immigration, they’d lowered the cap on immigration.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, it’s about ensuring that we have an immigration level and intake that is right for the country.
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, can I bring you to climate now. Barnaby Joyce says he’ll present his terms for the deal with the Nats to the Prime Minister today. How much is it going to cost taxpayers to secure the support of the National Party for net‑zero emissions by 2050? Will it be the tens of billions of dollars, the figure that keeps getting put about?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, firstly, I’m not going to pre‑empt any discussions that the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, myself and others may have. Obviously, we’ve been working on this issue internally for some time. But I think a key point for people to understand is that you do not have to choose between a stronger economy and a lower emissions economy. Since 2005 when we reduced emissions by more than 20 per cent our economy has actually grown by 40 per cent and –
FRAN KELLY:
So why would there be any need, then, to deliver billions of dollars worth of sweeteners to the Nats to get them across the line?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, that’s a very presumptive question there. What I’m saying in response is that we have seen our economy grow. We’ve seen 3 million more people in work today than back in 2005. So it’s not a zero‑sum game between a stronger economy and a lower emissions economy. And we’ll consider all potential investments in a whole range of areas based on a single test – does it make our economy stronger?
FRAN KELLY:
Okay. The Nationals Leader in the Senate Bridget McKenzie is warning that things will get ugly – that’s the quote – if cabinet commits to a firm net‑zero target without the Nationals support. Can you just confirm here what the Prime Minister has said in public is that it will be cabinet that makes this decision and that Australia will go to Glasgow with a net zero emissions target by 2050?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, cabinet hasn’t taken that decision, but it will be cabinet that does make the decision. And the Prime Minister has made clear that he’s heading to Glasgow, and obviously I support that. And I can tell you as Treasurer, the world is factoring in a net zero emission target. And I want Australia to capitalise on those opportunities in changes in financial markets as a result of a lower emissions future. I don’t want Australia to be disadvantaged by that.
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, you would know the world is factoring in not just net zero by 2050 but a lot more ambitious targets by 2030. We’ve got Rio Tinto today – the world’s biggest miner – programing to slash emissions by 50 per cent by 2030. We’ve got British High Commissioner to Australia Vicki Treadell saying the world needs to halve emissions by the end of the decade.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, we –
FRAN KELLY:
This puts the Australian government’s lack of ambition to absolute shame, doesn’t it?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, I wouldn’t say that at all, because we’ve not only promised a reduction in our carbon footprint but we’re actually delivering it, and that is quite different to other countries. For example, Canada has reduced its emissions by less than one per cent on 2005 levels; New Zealand by less than five per cent; and you’ve obviously seen them go up dramatically in India and China and elsewhere. Yet Australia has reduced its emissions by more than 20 per cent. We’re actually walking the talk, Fran, when it comes to reducing emissions, and our 2030 target was one that we took to the Australian people and was endorsed at the last election.
FRAN KELLY:
Just finally, Treasurer – I know your time is tight – yesterday the government used its numbers to prevent Christian Porter being referred to the privileges committee over his blind trust which is paying his legal fees. The cover‑up to end all cover‑ups is how Labor described it. Doesn’t this mean that the government thinks it’s perfectly all right for a minister to receive anonymous donations? That a minister never has to answer to parliament about where the money has come from?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, I’ll point out to you that Peter Dutton is the head of the government in the house. He actually wrote to the chair of the privileges committee and he said there had been differing interpretations by members in terms of making these declarations. So we’ve actually asked the committee to clarify what is required for a member to satisfy those requirements of the register of interests, particularly as it applies to contributions or assistance by a member from a third party, including crowd funding in relation to personal legal matters. So that’s –
FRAN KELLY:
Okay, but that’s a general ruling. We have this case of the Speaker Tony Smith – this is a very unusual thing for the Speaker to do – saying that a prima facie case has been made to investigate Christian Porter to see if he has breached parliament’s rules in this case. You voted that down after it was given precedence. That’s never, ever happened before in the house. Where does that leave the government’s standing when it comes to integrity?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, firstly, Tony Smith did say that his position did not imply a conclusion that a breach had occurred –
FRAN KELLY:
No, of course not. That’s what an investigation does – it doesn’t come in with an implication.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
But what he was simply doing was saying it was for the house to determine, and the house determined, as you know, along party lines. But I do also point out to you, there have been other examples in the parliament – like a Greens senator – who had a legal action against another person and received 1,800 donations. Not every one of those donations and the source of them has been revealed. And so, therefore –
FRAN KELLY:
Only eight of them were above the $300 declaration threshold, though. Only eight of them.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, again, this is the point – the differing interpretations by members with respect to those contributions to fund legal cases is a real issue –
FRAN KELLY:
Well, Treasurer, let me ask you this: you’re an experienced parliamentarian, you’re the Treasurer of the nation, do you think it is okay in the future for ministers to use a blind trust for donations?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I would absolutely like to see transparency with respect to the register of interest. But I do think right now we do have a lack of clarity about these particular issues that require further enunciation by the committee itself.
FRAN KELLY:
Yeah, but from your point of view to achieve transparency, as you’ve said, should blind trusts be ruled out as a mechanism for attracting donations?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, again, I go back to what we sought yesterday – which is a clarification on the very issues that you’re allude to.
FRAN KELLY:
Treasurer, thank you very much for joining us.