MARY GEARIN:
Joining me now is Treasurer Josh Frydenberg. Thanks very much for joining us.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Good morning, Mary. Nice to be with you.
MARY GEARIN:
You’ve said in a joint statement this morning that Australia is going to contribute $US3 million to NATO’s trust fund for Ukraine to support non‑lethal military equipment and medical supplies, but no details yet of the lethal military equipment. When will we find out about that?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
We’re actually talking to our counterparts in the United States and the United Kingdom about the nature of that equipment and we will do that in partnership with them. Obviously, that equipment needs to be sourced. It needs to be provided to the Ukrainians and it does need to be in partnership with those countries that are already providing other supports to Ukraine.
MARY GEARIN:
Can you give us some idea about what we’re talking about here, how much it would cost, how long it would go for, this supply?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
We’re not being specific at this stage because we’re still working out that detail. But what we have said is the non‑lethal support will be provided and now we’re going to elevate that to lethal equipment as well, but we’re also going to make a significant contribution to the humanitarian cause with the financial contribution as well. We are working out those details as well because right now there’s a humanitarian disaster unfolding. Hundreds of thousands of people are looking for a safe haven. People are cowering in bomb shelters in Kyiv as we speak as the missiles are being launched by the aggressive Russian regime.
MARY GEARIN:
Do you expect that the lethal military equipment supply will be a one‑off?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Again, it depends on how this situation unfolds. It’s a very dangerous situation. The announcement overnight by Vladimir Putin in relation to his nuclear forces again represents another escalation in an already dangerous crisis; and the Americans have 100,000 troops across Europe, including putting an extra 14,000 in the vicinity of Ukraine by President Biden since this crisis unfolded. Let’s be very clear that the Russians are not threatened by Ukraine. Ukraine is a country of 44 million people. It’s a peaceful country. The Russians are not acting in self‑defence. This is clearly a criminal act by Putin and his cronies.
MARY GEARIN:
Treasurer, when it comes to that nuclear weapon threat overnight, how serious do you believe it is? We see the Ukraine’s Foreign Minister has said it’s just a pressure tactic. Do you believe this is posturing sabre‑rattling or really that concern about escalation that you talk about, where do you fear that it could go?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I don’t think you can dismiss anything that Putin says or does given that, you know, some people thought he would never invade Ukraine, yet that is what is transpiring as we speak. This is the first major interstate conflict in Europe since the Nazis were defeated. It does represent a major challenge to the liberal international rules‑based order that has underpinned prosperity in Europe for more than 70 years. We have the United Nations established in 1945. That is a direct and flagrant breach of its charter. We have international financial institutions like the IMF and the World Bank that were established a year prior at the Bretton Woods agreement. Again, Russia’s participation in these international forums from now on I think will be reconsidered.
MARY GEARIN:
Reconsidered. So, do you believe that that is on the table in terms of taking them out of some of those major institutions?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I think many countries will ask the question: how can you go and invade another country without provocation and then participate in what is a liberal international rules‑based order where there are norms and laws that need to be adhered to, which are clearly not? This is why it is so significant what’s happened here with Russia. This is why it’s an elevation.
MARY GEARIN:
Indeed. And, Treasurer, you’d also agree, no doubt, that it’s a test for the west. Australia has backed sanctions early, but the west generally has been criticised for not going far enough early enough and despite the headlines that we’ve had over the weekend about Russian banks being kicked out of SWIFT, that facilitates global payments from banks, it does though – we are still allowing for some payments for energy supplies so western markets aren’t hit too hard; is that right and do you believe that’s good enough?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
The first thing to say is that Australia has very limited direct economic exposure to Russia or the Ukraine. Total trade with those two countries in terms of Australia’s broader trade relationship is less than half a per cent so, it’s 0.2 per cent, and we have very limited financial system exposure, whether it’s in debt or equity. It’s a very different situation for European countries. The Germans get more than 50 per cent of their gas supplies from Russia…
MARY GEARIN:
But, Treasurer, just to jump in there, if we’re supposed to be standing up to the bullies and I agree with you, it’s clear Europe’s dependence on Russia, but is that good enough still? Would you like to see Europe go further and ban all of those supplies?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
We would like to see Europe go further and Russia removed from SWIFT, which is the international payments platform which allows cross‑border transactions to be settled. This would be a further blow to the Russian economy, which has already seen its stock market fall by more than 40 per cent over the last week and its currency be devalued by more than 10 per cent. But if you’re sitting in Germany or other European nations, heavily reliant on Russian gas, that has, you know, a constraint on your actions, because it dramatically and significantly impacts your manufacturing sector, your economy. That’s why countries the world over are re‑examining their ability to act. I spoke overnight to my US counterpart, US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, and we agreed to continue to work together to turn the screws on Putin and his cronies.
MARY GEARIN:
What if you’re sitting in Beijing, Josh Frydenberg? Do you agree with the PM in his criticism of China that it’s not doing enough to take a greater role in denouncing Russia?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Yes, absolutely. Russia has been a fellow traveller here – sorry, China has been a fellow traveller here with Russia. They put out a joint statement very recently between the leaders. China is now taking more wheat exports from Russia. Russia is the world’s largest wheat exporter, and Ukraine is a very significant exporter as well. Therefore that is a partnership between Russia and China which would give Australians and the broader world a great deal of concern.
MARY GEARIN:
I just want to get your reactions to articles last week that reported your election advertising is being distributed via WeChat. That’s the social media giant. That’s despite Coalition MPs, including your own chair of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence Security, saying that Australians should quit the platform because the Prime Minister’s account was hacked. These reports say that authorised – advertising by you was distributed on the platform since. Is that true and is that appropriate?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
The first thing to say is I would like to have a WeChat account, but I’ve been denied one just as the Prime Minister…
MARY GEARIN:
But this was about advertising authorised by your office, with the knowledge of your office?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I’m just – to answer your question. I want a WeChat account. The Prime Minister wants a WeChat account. We’ve been denied access to one. Anthony Albanese has one. I think that’s wrong.
MARY GEARIN:
So, is it wrong that your advertising should be on that platform when…
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
We advertise with something called the Financial News and that advertises and sends content more broadly. We don’t pay for specific articles, but we do put advertisements there and, for example, I put an advertisement, which was very clearly displayed on WeChat about Anthony Albanese and his commitment to higher taxes, so if the Labor Party want to bring attention to that, that’s wonderful.
MARY GEARIN:
Josh Frydenberg, just to interrupt, just finally, because I have run out of time with you, but will you be telling James Paterson and those other MPs that that is not a bad thing then to be on that platform?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, again, we’re not on the platform as a WeChat account holder. I would like to be.
MARY GEARIN:
Do you think the people feel the difference there? It seems…
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I think they do.
MARY GEARIN:
It seems to people to be splitting hairs, potentially.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
I wouldn’t share that characterisation. Look, I think it’s very important to communicate with your community, whether it’s the Australian–Chinese community or any other ethnic community in your area, and that is something I will continue to do and to bring attention to many of the important issues that will be relevant to the upcoming election.
MARY GEARIN:
Treasurer, we have run out of time. Thank you very much for joining us today.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Always a pleasure. Thanks, Mary.
MARY GEARIN:
That’s Josh Frydenberg, of course, Federal Treasurer.