PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Treasurer, welcome.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Nice to be with you, Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You've today increased the emergency payment level to $750 a week. That is the same amount as JobKeeper was last year. Will you now concede that dumping JobKeeper was a mistake?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Ending JobKeeper when we did was the right decision. JobKeeper did its job. More than 3.8 million people were supported by that program. The most expensive wage support program in Australia's history at a cost of around $90 billion. But the advice from Treasury was that if we had continued it beyond the March quarter, it would have been distorting the labour market. Indeed we saw unemployment fall following the end of JobKeeper and at that time it was costing more than $2 billion a month. So it was the right economic decision, for the country…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
It allowed out labour market to find its right equilibrium. We’re now in a different situation…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Treasurer, but your own Budget told you that we would have lockdowns this year. You knew it. It was in your Budget papers and yet you didn't design emergency payment until Victoria took you kicking and screaming to do it. Will you apologise for not actually planning for this earlier?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well I think the assumption of your question is wrong. Because what we did do in the Budget is we assigned more than $40 billion in extra COVID economic support. We moved to a different phase of our economic response plan. Now we had assumed that there would be further lockdowns, shorter lockdowns than what we’re now seeing in New South Wales. As the situation has evolved, so has our response, and as you know, we've announced today, a very significant boost to both household support, as well as business support, in partnership with both the New South Wales Government and the Victorian Government, and this will provide welcome relief to businesses and families in those two major states.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But why did you wait until South Australia and Victoria were no longer in lockdown to increase these payments? I mean, they will be backdated to this higher amount if any lockdown happens from day one, so effectively Victorians just went through a two week lockdown, their fifth lockdown, but they didn't get this level of payment. I mean, people are probably watching in Melbourne now, thinking why didn't we get the higher payment?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, the good news for the people of Victoria has been that our income support payments started from day one of their lockdown. Secondly….
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But they got the lesser amount, the $600. They never got this $750.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
And today's announcement came as a result of New South Wales extending its lockdown for another four weeks. This a very lengthy lockdown, not too dissimilar to what Victoria went through last year, but when Victoria went through that lockdown last year there was the JobKeeper program in place. We now have a more targeted, faster system of payments that are going out the door. And you've heard from a range of commentators and economists that the measures that we have now in place are delivering the necessary support that people need. For example, in relation to the income support, for households, it's going out the door in some cases 40 minutes after the application...
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Which is welcome….
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
More than 90 per cent of them are being paid online and around a million claims have already been processed.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I want to get in just to get to the reason you just cited. You said we made this announcement because Greater Sydney is extending its lockdown by four weeks. But in fact, this $750 will apply from day dot for any lockdown. So, I know how to add. I was okay at maths. That means that Victorians and South Australians missed out. That's the fact. It doesn't kick in for longer lockdowns. It's from day one.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, we have both income support and business support. Obviously the need is going to be significant in New South Wales with this longer lockdown. And the impact that it has on both household and business balance sheets are very significant. At the same time we recognise that there may be further lockdowns in other states. So this increased income support is welcome. And also significantly today we've announced business support where the previous turnover threshold for businesses to receive this support has been up to $50 million. It's now going to be up to $250 million. And the maximum payment per week to businesses was $10,000. It's now going to be up to $100,000 a week. And the expectation is that hundreds of thousands of employees and businesses will get to benefit.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but you get what I'm trying to get at, which is there appears to be a double standard that people in those other states didn't get the same level of payments?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, the reality is we now have a new set of payments that we've announced today…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But do you get why people would feel disappointed?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
…on the business side.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Good that you've done it. I think my point is isn't it too late?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
It's certainly providing necessary support for some tough weeks ahead and…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Not for Victorians or South Australians last week?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, let me just tell you what we've announced today for the people of Victoria. That is a combination with the Victorian Government to put together on a 50-50 basis, a $400 million fund for small and medium sized businesses who have been impacted by the lockdown and indeed by the continued restrictions that are in place. Their support in some cases could be grants of up to $20,000 for these businesses, whether it's a cafe or a catering business, a restaurant or a hairdresser or a gym, these businesses are in line for support that's coming, provided jointly by the Victorian and the Federal Government. It's a sign of a renewed economic partnership because our focus is on helping both Victorians and the people in New South Wales get through these most recent lockdowns.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yes, so let me read between the lines, are you trying to repair your relationship with the Victorian Government, that you were, personally, come on, it didn't look like a nice relationship to me?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well look, there's been some choice words from both sides.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Including you.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
…of recent weeks. Indeed, recent months. Sure. I have made pointed comments and so have they. But my heart is with the people of Victoria. As indeed it is with all Australians. My job as the national, the Federal Treasurer is to deliver a stronger economy. What we did see before the most recent lockdowns was unemployment falling to a 10-year low. And that was welcome. We had seen Australia's economy bigger today than it was going into the pandemic. We did that ahead of any other advanced economy. But the reality of the COVID pandemic and the Delta variant is that you need to prepare for these new contingencies.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You do, you do.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
The new events as they arise.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Alright.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
That's what we've done with these economic support payments.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You compared yourself in this interview, last year's lockdown in Victoria, the long one, that we can't forget, with what's happening in New South Wales. You said that last year's lockdown was - and I wrote it down - the biggest public policy failure by a state government in living memory. Is that now rivalled by what New South Wales is doing? Is that now the new biggest public policy failure by a state government?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, look, if you want to relitigate the past the facts are there for everyone to see.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I feel the past in my body because I went through that lockdown. So I ask a very pertinent question. Is this the new public policy failure?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
No I understand. Well the first thing to say is obviously more than 800 people tragically lost their lives in Victoria and, as you know in Victoria, Patricia, we have gone through more than 200 days of lockdown, far more than any other state. With respect to New South Wales’s lockdown, what you did see early on in the crisis was and early on in the spread of the Delta virus in that state, is you saw limo drivers who shouldn't have been carrying around aviation workers, indeed without a mask. And that is how the virus started to spread…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So isn't that the biggest public policy failure given what it's led to? I mean, look at how much money you have to spend today to try and rescue this struggling state because they took too long to lockdown and realise what had happened?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
And what is welcome is they've acknowledged that mistake and changed the public health orders and hopefully there will not be a repeat of that. But the reality is you need to lockdown fast when you get the outbreak of the Delta variant. Victoria has done that. We welcomed it and today Victorians have started to see the easing of restrictions and the opening up. Unfortunately, New South Wales has still got a hard road ahead.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yes, and we don't want them to people to, this is the thing, we don’t want people to be struggling like this.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Yes. Absolutely.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So, is now the Victorian standard the new gold standard?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, Victoria's had a pretty tough time during the pandemic. You were just sharing…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yes, the standard. No, not at all. I don't enjoy this pandemic at all. I'm talking about reacting to circumstances.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Yeah. Well I think in Victoria they have reacted effectively in the most recent lockdown. And I do think the same applies in South Australia. In both cases, there was a relatively small number of Delta variant related cases. The health authorities got on top of them and now we've started to see the restrictions eased. In New South Wales' case, they didn't move as fast as the other states had early on. The virus spread and now they're going to spend more time in lockdown as a result.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yeah. And that lesson could have been learnt, couldn’t it, by looking at their southern cousins, us. We’re both Victorians, Treasurer. Why would anyone want to do that twice? Why would you want to do what we did?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Not twice, five times.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I'm talking the length, which was the punishing element of it?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Look, nobody wants to go through lockdowns and that's why the vaccinations are going to be so important going forward. And what is pleasing is yesterday nearly 200,000 jabs were delivered. As you know we're delivering now more than a million a week, more supplies are coming online. And the only way to make lockdowns a thing of the past is to get more people vaccinated and that's where our focus is.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. The economy is forecast to contract in the September quarter with some concern over the potential of a recession too. So I just want to get your view on this - should we be prepared for a recession?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, the first thing to say is we don't know what's around the corner with respect to COVID and seeing our two biggest states in lockdown over the quarter is going to have a significant economic impact. So I won't be surprised if the September quarter comes in negative. A definition of recession is when you have two consecutive quarters of negative growth. And that is something we will obviously do our best to avoid and the quickest way to avoid that and the most effective way to avoid that is to see New South Wales get on top of this outbreak and to come out of lockdown. So that's why our economic supports have been put in place to help businesses, to replace some of the lost economic activity, to cushion the blow for families who have been impacted. And to do everything we can on the health side to encourage people to follow the health advice, to stay indoors other than for those prescribed reasons. And to try to get on top of this virus as quickly as possible.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
The Prime Minister has likened the vaccine take-up to a gold medal run at the Olympics. So let's settle this - is it a race? Is getting vaccinated a race after all?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, I firmly believe that the quicker we get people vaccinated the faster we get out of this crisis.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So it is a race?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
From here on, we've got to do it as quickly as possible. There's no doubt about that. Look, the pandemic has now been with us for more than 15 months. On both the health and the economic front, Australia has done extremely well. If we had a loss of life in this country, equivalent to the average across the OECD, we would have lost more than 30,000 lives. Fortunately that number is today below 1,000 lives that have been lost. In the UK they've lost around 130,000 people. So we've done well to avoid the fate of other nations in terms of loss of life. In terms of the labour market, we are now seeing the unemployment rate, as I said, at 4.9 per cent. The lowest in a decade, 160,000 more people in work today than before the pandemic began. That's been achieved ahead of any other advanced economy. But now we're into the next phase of the virus with a new variant and with the challenge of rolling out the vaccine as quickly as possible. Other countries have done it faster than us but their circumstances have also been different. We're seeking now to get the vaccine to as many people as possible and with that vaccine we can move to the next stage which is living with the virus and that's where the work of the Doherty Institute which will be discussed at National Cabinet later in the week, is so important because it brings a scientific lens, together with an economic lens, to the right number of vaccinations that we need to plot the path out of this crisis.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I know you say things are different, but given what's unfolded and how Delta just spreads like this and we thought we were living large and living our best lives and look at New South Wales now, we’re not. Should we have always treated it as a race? Always, from day dot? Because it was.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, to be fair we did seek to get as many vaccines from as many different sources as possible. And as you know, we were developing the manufacturing of the AstraZeneca vaccine here in Australia by CSL under global licence. Now the advice from ATAGI was that the AstraZeneca vaccine should not have been made available to certain age cohorts. With the outbreak in New South Wales, that medical advice has changed. So we now have an alignment between the medical advice and the facts on the ground, with ATAGI strongly recommending that people seek out the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine, rather than waiting for alternatives. I think this poses a real opportunity for us to repair some of that brand damage to AstraZeneca that had occurred early on and to encourage people in the eligible age groups to take the AstraZeneca vaccine, of course, take the Pfizer vaccine if they're eligible for that too.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And they should race to the AstraZeneca vaccine?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
They should try to get it as soon as possible and obviously seek the medical advice that is also recommended in individual circumstances.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Who is responsible for that brand damage?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Well, again, we can only take the medical advice...
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Is it the medical advisors, ATAGI?
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
They are wonderfully committed, professional, dedicated medical professionals who know a lot more than you or I do about the spread of the virus and indeed the efficacy of the vaccines. They were making their judgements based on the best advice and evidence available to them. And they looked at international experience and provided that advice to us. Now that the situation on the ground has changed with this major outbreak in New South Wales, their advice has changed. We welcome that and we encourage as many people as possible to take the vaccines available.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Get vaccinated. Okay, Treasurer, we’ve run out of time, I know I ran a bit over time, thank you for talking to me.
JOSH FRYDENBERG:
Always a pleasure.