DAVID SPEERS:
Minister, welcome to the program.
JULIE COLLINS:
Morning, David.
SPEERS:
Let's talk about rents firstly. Do you agree with the Reserve Bank Governor who has said that rents will keep rising a further 10 per cent?
COLLINS:
We're obviously concerned about those Australians that are renting. We are concerned about the rental increases, but all of the experts and the evidence tell us that what we need to do to turn this around is to add to supply. That's what we're trying to do. When it comes to the Housing Australia Future Fund, which is the bill in the Senate, we're talking about 30,000 additional social and affordable rental homes. They are rental homes we're trying to add to supply here. And then we've got parties out there saying that they're going to block this, they're not going to deal with it. And what we saw, frankly, last week in the Senate was really quite, from my perspective, disappointing. I know that the community housing providers and that the peak bodies that are on the front line every day dealing with people who are dealing with housing stress - whether they be renters, whether they be people fleeing family violence - they want to get more homes on the ground and they're saying that the blockage of this bill in the Senate last week means there are homes that will not be built, that they have ready to build.
SPEERS:
Okay, and I will come to all of that. But just back to the question for the renters out there, are they facing as the Reserve Bank Governor says a further 10 per cent increase?
COLLINS:
Well David, we do know that the rental market is getting tighter. We know that vacancy rates are low. What we need to do is add to supply. You saw us respond in the budget in terms of our tax changes with build‑to‑rent. You saw us respond with increasing Commonwealth Rental Assistance. We are working hard every day to try and turn this around. There's no easy solutions to this-
SPEERS:
What’s your forecast? Are rents going to go up, as the Reserve Bank Governor says, another 10 per cent or do you have a different forecast?
COLLINS:
Well, everybody suggests that they will go up. I think there's different views about what that looks like. What we want to do is add to supply as quickly as possible. We have less dwellings per thousand people in Australia than the OECD average. We've seen a change of household composition post the pandemic that is making that worse. So we need to add to supply and do it as quickly as we can.
SPEERS:
Alright. So if you agree rents are going to keep going up from where they are now, should there be any sort of limit on how much landlords can increase rent by?
COLLINS:
Well, what is being proposed here about rent freezes obviously the Commonwealth government doesn't have the power to do under the Constitution. We've been very clear about that from the very beginning. People are talking about other forms of rent controls, such as rent capping. That is obviously the purview of the states and territories-
SPEERS:
Do you have a view, though?
COLLINS:
Well, some of the states and territories have ruled it out completely, both freezes and caps. Obviously, there is a style of a cap currently in place in the ACT. What the overwhelming experts say though is that this doesn't work. We obviously want to look at things that do work, and the primary thing we're being told is add to supply and that's what we're trying to do.
SPEERS:
There are some experts who say the ACT system does work. In fact, Core Logic's data shows the ACT rents came off, went down a little in May, and yet more landlords are still coming into the market. Do you think it's not working in the ACT or it is working in the ACT?
COLLINS:
Well, all of the evidence that I've read around the ACT says what's working is adding to supply, which is what we're being told the solution is right across the country-
SPEERS:
But their rent caps, is it working?
COLLINS:
Well, different states and territories apply it differently, and will apply it differently if that's what they decide to do-
SPEERS:
But what's your view as the Minister on what the ACT’s doing?
COLLINS:
Well, I'll leave that up to the ACT to look at their situation-
SPEERS:
You must have a view.
COLLINS:
Well, in some cases it does work in a little way, but overall the evidence and data shows that it doesn't work long term, David. What it shows long term, in terms of what the experts are telling us, is that it reduces supply. When you look at the evidence that is being cited by others, the evidence shows that it reduces supply significantly by up to 15 per cent. The other thing that it shows is the quality of the stock diminishes over time. So, I will look at the data and the evidence, and the data and the evidence says that it doesn't work.
SPEERS:
Could I ask what evidence you're talking about there? Would you mind just sharing with viewers, because you said it does work a little bit, but not in the long term. So, what evidence is that?
COLLINS:
That’s right. Well, if you look at the Australian Housing Urban Research Institute, you look at what Michael Fotheringham has been saying there, you look at what Graeme Samuel, the former boss of the ACCC is saying in terms of rent capping, and I cited some of that in the Parliament this week. The overwhelming evidence suggests that it doesn't work. States and territories will do their own things in terms of this. What we're being asked to do here, though, is to have eight different jurisdictions make these decisions at the same time. And we have been told very clearly from those jurisdictions that they won't be doing this. Some states have already ruled out both freezes and caps. What we're being asked to do is simply not achievable, and what we're not going to do is commit to something that's not achievable, David.
SPEERS:
Okay, so for renters out there who you agree are facing further rent increases, the Reserve Bank Governor says a further 10 per cent, there's nothing you will do to stop unlimited rent rises?
COLLINS:
What we will do is we've put renters rights on the National Cabinet agenda. We will add to supply with our changes to build‑to‑rent. We're looking at every opportunity to add to supply, and that's what you've seen us do as a government all the way along. We have added to what were our election commitments on housing substantially since that point in time. And we're doing that in a considered way, talking to the construction sector about what the constraints are in the sector and how do we get more homes on the ground more quickly. We are doing everything we can do to turn this around. It is a very complex thing, as I'm sure you're aware. I mean, if there was a silver bullet, we would have used it by now. But what we're actually trying to do is turn this around.
SPEERS:
But it sounds like you're ruling out what the Greens are calling for, these rent caps nationwide. Is there anything more you can do to win them over in the Senate on the housing fund?
COLLINS:
We have moved at every opportunity. We got a letter from the crossbench, including the Greens, earlier this year outlining eight different things that they wanted. We have moved on all eight of those. You've seen us talk about that publicly before. We've obviously got the support of some of the crossbench in the Senate. We're always open to having conversations, David, about getting this through. But what we saw last week was actually blocking something which will deliver homes on the ground. When people say that there's no cost to the decision and that delays don't matter, they do matter. And they matter to people on the front line. They matter to people who are sitting on public housing waiting lists. They matter to people who are fleeing family violence. They matter to veterans at risk of homelessness. It does matter. And it matters, and it's mattering in a practical way. And that's not me saying this. This is community housing providers and peak bodies who are on the ground every day dealing with these people.
SPEERS:
You spent some of your childhood in public housing. What does this mean to you?
COLLINS:
Well, obviously, it is very personal for me. I understand the struggles. I understand how difficult it is to make sure that more Australians have a safe, affordable place to call home. I am driven every day to do more, to make sure that we as a federal government step up to the plate. I mean, what we've got in our government is a government where you've got the Housing Minister, the Treasurer and the Prime Minister invested in this, trying to turn this around. It's the first time in more than a decade you've had a federal government at the table, working with our partners in the states and territories, working with other tiers of government, working with the sector, including the construction sector and indeed the superannuation sector, to try and turn this around, David.
SPEERS:
Some of your Labor colleagues have been saying to me that they think part of the answer, big part of the answer to the housing crisis is doing something about short term rentals through sites like Airbnb. They point to what big cities like New York are doing. New York's put in place some tight regulations that Airbnb is fighting in the courts. Where you are, Hobart, the city council is doubling council rates for short stay rentals. Is this something you support?
COLLINS:
Well, I do think that Airbnbs and I've looked at some of the data and the evidence again, the Australian Housing Urban Research Institute has done some to say they are having a significant impact, particularly in regional towns and regional areas where tourism is high. There's no doubt they are having some type of impact. There's not a lot of data and evidence around what types of interventions will actually work, David. So, I'm looking at some of the interventions across the different states and territories. They obviously hold, again, all of the levers and the powers around this. Some of them are doing some quite inventive things, as you cited - my own southern Tasmanian council here, the Hobart City Council. They are doing some inventive things. I'll be looking at the evidence around does that make a difference?
SPEERS:
So, you are looking into whether a more nationally coordinated approach is needed on Airbnb?
COLLINS:
Well, what the Housing Ministers have done is we've had four meetings. It's been raised at some of those meetings. What we're looking at is looking at the different interventions in each state and territory, and looking at the data and the evidence around what's working. I've also obviously got the Interim Supply and Affordability Council, which is essentially a panel of experts looking at data around what small wins can we get really quickly to add to supply. And they will look at all of those. But again, the states and territories need to move in terms of this. They have the powers.
SPEERS:
Look, five years ago you said, quote, any solution to Tasmania's housing and rental affordability crisis must include federal reforms to negative gearing and capital gains tax. The housing crisis is clearly only worse. Now, do you still agree with what you said then?
COLLINS:
Well, David, we obviously had policies at that point in time. There's been two elections in that interim period. What we're being told to do is to add to supply, that's what we're focussed on. We're focussed on adding to supply. Those things are not on the government's agenda, and we're busy adding to supply and we're doing that at every opportunity we have. And you've seen us move really quickly. We unlocked that 575 just last year, and we've already got homes on the ground going up today because of decisions we made as a government.
SPEERS:
Okay, but you were very clear back then, a solution must include reforms on negative gearing and capital gains tax. Election results changed your mind, did they?
COLLINS:
Well, David, I'm focussed on what's possible. I'm focussed on getting supply on the ground. We're in a different position than we were - as you say, that was-
SPEERS:
You’re in government.
COLLINS:
That's right. But that was some time ago, and as you say, things have moved on. What we want to do is add to supply. That is our position. We're moving quickly, as quickly as we can to add to supply of houses right across the country.
SPEERS:
Look, one final one, Minister. Can I ask you about the Indigenous Voice, just in your role as the Housing Minister? I'm just wondering, housing in remote communities may well be something that the Voice wants to give advice to you as the Minister on. How would you treat advice from an Indigenous Voice? Would you treat it differently to advice you currently get from other groups?
COLLINS:
Well, David, I'm already listening to Indigenous Australians around how do we close the gap. I am the Minister responsible, as you said, for closing the gap when it comes to housing. I think it's Closing the Gap target 9a. I had a meeting just this week with Indigenous housing providers from Victoria. And we've also, since I've come to government, since we've come to government, established a national peak in terms of the National Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander Housing Association. We want to work with them to get capacity, so that they can actually provide support and advice in terms of what is required. So, I would absolutely be listening to the voices of Indigenous Australians when it comes to housing and closing that gap. An important point here, David, of course is that our Housing Australia Future Fund also included $200 million for repairs and maintenance to Indigenous, remote indigenous housing.
SPEERS:
But the question is, what difference would an Indigenous Voice make then, in this regard?
COLLINS:
Well, it would obviously give us more voices from around the country in the way that it would be established. I mean, we're talking about getting input from right across the country. At the moment, obviously I can't speak and talk to every single Indigenous voice in the country, so it would centralise that and provide us with very good advice on how do we close the gap.
SPEERS:
Minister, thanks so much for joining us this morning.
COLLINS:
Thank you, David.