HENRY BELOT:
Julie Collins thanks for joining Capital Hill.
JULIE COLLINS:
It’s great to be on Capital Hill this afternoon.
BELOT:
What's the government going to do with the exemption for small businesses? Are you going to make it up to 20 staff as recommended?
COLLINS:
Well, obviously, it's 15 in the legislation before the Parliament at the moment. We had a Senate committee look at the Bill, and they have made eight recommendations. One of those is in relation to changing the threshold for the number of employees, and we're negotiating and discussing that at the moment. We're obviously having consultations, there have been no decisions made in relation to that at this point in time. But we're certainly negotiating, and we're talking about what that might look like.
BELOT:
And how many more businesses would that impact? Do you have the number if you go up to 20?
COLLINS:
Well, we know at the moment with the 15, it's more than 2 million small businesses will be exempt. And if it's 20, it would be two and a half, more than two and a half million businesses. We're talking about with 15 employees that's 90 per cent of Australian businesses – all businesses - that will not be, that will be exempt from this provision. And then it goes up to I think it's 92 and a half per cent, or 97 per cent - it's quite a lot.
BELOT:
There's obviously a lot of concern from the sector, though. One of the questions that’s been raised this week is how it's going to work in practice. Say if a business has 15 staff, what if those staff are split across different organisations? What happens then?
COLLINS:
Well, obviously, the number of employees threshold is just one of four thresholds as I was responding in Parliament yesterday. So obviously, they need to meet the threshold in terms of the number of employees. So if they're across multiple sites, if it's the same employer, they would meet that threshold, but they then need to meet the other thresholds, which include that the Fair Work Commission needs to determine that they are a single interest bargaining scheme, the Fair Work Commission needs to make a determination that it's not contrary to the public interest to allow this to occur. And indeed, either side of the bargain, so the employer or the employees need to opt in. So the employer could opt in, or the employees - the majority of employees. So if the employees are across several sites, a majority of those employees would need to vote to say, we want to opt into an enterprise agreement.
BELOT:
As a whole within the business or?
COLLINS:
Within the business. But the point here is-
BELOT:
Within the overall business or within-
COLLINS:
If they’ve got one employer. It's with the employer, so it's a single employer. But the point here is that small businesses have been saying the current system is completely inaccessible. We've had the Council of Small Business say that the current system is expensive and inaccessible. What we're trying to do here is make it more flexible, simpler for businesses and cheaper for businesses to be able to access the benefits of enterprise bargaining.
BELOT:
Just want to get a little bit of clarity, because I know it's coming up a few times. So just to hit it on the head and do it. Now what if you have a restaurant that also has a couple of cafes working separately under the umbrella? Some of them want to join multi employer bargaining, others don't? How do you calculate that 15 staff threshold or 20?
COLLINS:
That's obviously for Fair Work Commission, and it's a single employer. The definition is about who is the employer and the number of employees. The important point here is, is that small businesses have come to us to say they want access to enterprise agreements, because they know it will improve their productivity. They know that engaging and negotiating with their staff brings benefits to their business. That's why they want access to enterprise agreements. We know from the Productivity Commission recently saying that enterprise agreements improve flexibility, they improve outcomes. But we also know that most Australians have been waiting almost a decade for a decent pay rise. We want to make sure that we get wages moving in Australia.
BELOT:
Why did the government get the figure or the cost of compliances for businesses so wrong? Out by $5,000 per employee.
COLLINS:
Well, what we saw yesterday, of course, was the Opposition really carry on what is essentially a typo. What this was was a distraction from some of the real issues-
BELOT:
But $5,000 per employee for a small business, if that adds up to 20 staff, if we get there it’s about an extra $100,000. It's more than a typo, isn’t it?
COLLINS:
That's not how it's calculated.
BELOT:
How is it calculated?
COLLINS:
It's been calculated by the Department of Employment. And the point here is, as I made in Parliament, is that we're trying to make it cheaper. Because organisations and employers that are members of peak organisations - the peak organisation can organise bargaining on their behalf and it makes it cheaper for them. We also know that accessing the existing system is incredibly expensive. We're trying to make it easier and cheaper. That is what we're trying to do here. And what we saw yesterday really was a distraction from the opposition. I mean, we had the Shadow Minister go out and try and whip up confusion on this. And she's also the Minister for Women. She said the whole bill is terrible. I mean, seriously, it addresses sexual harassment in the workplace. The recommendation in relation to sexual harassment-
BELOT:
This is a very wide bill and there is I think, if you listen to the crossbench, about support for 80, 90 per cent of it there. So I just want to go back to what the government's doing. The regulatory impact statement for this had some advice that was given when they're trying to work out how much it would cost for payroll services, why was it citing websites like bark.com?
COLLINS:
Well, obviously, the Department of Employment prepare the regulatory impact statement separate from the government and the Minister. We accept that it is a document that belongs with that bill, and it's the regulatory impact statement for that bill. That should be correct. But it was a big deal about what is essentially a typo yesterday. What we're trying to do here though-
BELOT:
There's a couple of websites that have been cited here. One is a spiritual healer, the other is bark.com. that has services for magicians. How is that really appropriate when a lot of businesses want some real clarity here?
COLLINS:
The Department costed it in a way that is usually done by Departments. I'm not here to explain how it was calculated by the Department. The calculation should be correct. They should be correct. They absolutely should be correct. But we think that yesterday, what we saw was a big distraction about what is essentially a typo. What we're trying to do is make it cheaper and easier for small business to access enterprise bargaining. That's what the bill does. When you look at how much it's costing businesses now to access enterprise bargaining, what we're doing with this bill will make it cheaper. And as I said, many businesses, members of peak organisations that will enable them to bargain in a much cheaper way.
BELOT:
I know you say it's a typo. But would this have happened if the process wasn't happening so quickly? That we have a $5,000 discrepancy in consultant fees. We also have bark.com cited as a reference and we also have a spiritual healer cited as well, isn't this proof that this process has been rushed?
COLLINS:
What we have is a large number of Australians that haven't had a decent pay rise for nearly a decade. What we have had is these businesses coming to government saying that they want more flexibility and more productivity. What we have had is a Jobs and Skills Summit, and coming out of that we have prepared legislation before the parliament to deal with some of the issues raised including things like amendments to the better off overall test to approve flexibility-
BELOT:
Doesn’t the government also have to get this right and have it stand up to scrutiny when you have these sorts of sources backing up the impact statement.
COLLINS:
We are of course, absolutely up for scrutiny. We're talking to organisations to businesses and peak organisations all the time as we go through this process. And workers. I mean, we're talking to everybody right across the spectrum to make sure that we get this right. But we do need to get it done. We need to get it done because too many Australians haven't had a decent pay rise in almost a decade. That is what - it's about improving productivity, improving flexibility, but also making sure that we get wages moving. And we went to the election saying that we wanted to improve people's wages.
BELOT:
But you didn’t go to the election saying that there was going to be a return to multi‑employer bargaining?
COLLINS:
There was an agreement that came out of the Jobs and Skills summit by the Council of Small Business Organisations, COSBOA, and the ACTU that said that they want to be able to access enterprise agreements. That is what we are trying to do with the bill-
BELOT:
The organisation you mentioned today – COSBOA - I bring it up because you cited them directly. This morning they've confirmed that they still have serious concerns about this legislation and the impact. As the responsible minister for that sector, why are you pressing ahead with this?
COLLINS:
We're obviously continuing to talk to them about a whole range of issues. We're continuing to consult on the bill. I mean, the current system was described by them as inaccessible, completely inaccessible. We need to make sure that businesses across Australia do have access to enterprise agreements that they can access improved productivity and flexibility by negotiating with their employees. We need to get wages moving. That's what we're trying to do with this bill.
BELOT:
Julie Collins thanks for your time.
COLLINS:
Thanks.