PETER VAN ONSELEN:
Joining us now is the Assistant Treasurer and Sports Minister Mark Arbib. Mark, thanks for your company.
MINISTER ARBIB:
Good to be here.
Audio of Scott Morrison in Parliament.
VAN ONSELEN:
Scott Morrison isn't talking about Syria he's talking about the Australian Labor Party in Government. Now Mark Arbib let me ask you, it's that kind of relentless negativity that you're fighting against. Dennis Shanahan has just said you won the week but you have long term problems. How do you overcome that kind of throwing of mud if you like and it sticking in certain sections of the community.
MINISTER ARBIB:
I think the Liberal Party is bringing themselves down with that sort of negativity. I mean every week you hear it: "No, no, no." They've got no policy, no plans, no commitment, just saying no. And the scare campaigns. The scare campaign over carbon, the scare campaigns over everything.
VAN ONSELEN:
But it's working at the moment, you'd have to accept, the polls tell us that.
MINISTER ARBIB:
This is a long game, I mean there's still 13, 14, 15 months until the next election campaign and we've got a plan in place. When you look at what we're doing we're bringing in the Minerals Resource Rent Tax to ensure Australians get a fair share and small businesses get a tax cut. We're working to put in place a price on carbon to make sure we tackle climate change. Now there are major things happening. So Labor has a plan for the future, Labor is working for a strong economy and making sure Australians get the benefits of employment. But at the same time as that you have a Coalition who, every time they open their mouths and every time they want to talk about policies – which they don’t really want to – out comes the truth. We know now that they’ve walked away from the surplus, they have no plans to deliver a surplus. We know that they have a $70 billion hole in their costings. They can’t deliver a surplus and in the end there are going to be cuts to services, cuts to jobs if Tony Abbott ever becomes Prime Minister.
VAN ONSELEN:
Sure and we’ll get to all the economic issues in a little while, with these programs we’ve got enough time to go through a range of issues. But lets start and we’ll move on from it, with the leadership. You were one of the men that played a key role in removing Kevin Rudd. There is now speculation of a Kevin Rudd return to the leadership. How committed are you to the current Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, who you played such a hand in putting there? Do you guarantee that you will stick with her to the bitter end and oppose any change?
MINISTER ARBIB:
I’m 100 per cent, like the caucus, committed to Julia Gillard. 100 per cent so I’ll be supporting her.
VAN ONSELEN:
Now and into the future? Whatever the polls say, she’ll go to the next election?
MINISTER ARBIB:
That’s my view and I’ll tell you why. The why is the important thing here. I think she is the best person to lead the Labor Party, she is, and when I look at the work she’s done in terms of the carbon price, I look at the work she’s done in terms of the reforms around the MRRT, the work she’s done in the Parliament, to pass something like 254 bills. She has done a remarkable job. To put the sport hat on for a second, she is a test cricket player and she’s dug in for a long, long innings -
VAN ONSELEN:
But at the moment she’s not scoring a lot of runs, let’s be honest, she’s just holding up one end.
MINISTER ARBIB:
But the Labor Party is delivering for the Australian people and we’ve still got time. We just need to keep doing what we’re doing and make sure people understand the benefits. They will start seeing it, when the small business tax cuts go through, when the depreciation allowance goes through, when superannuation starts increasing for workers. People will understand the work that Labor has done for them.
VAN ONSELEN:
Ok but one final question from me then we will open this debate up more widely. You said that’s my view when I asked whether she will go to the next election. Is that you acknowledging that it’s not everyone’s view and there seems to be momentum in Rudd’s favour?
MINISTER ARBIB:
I speak for myself, I don’t speak for anyone else. I think it’s important that you’ve asked me my view and I’ve given that to you.
MATTHEW FRANKLIN:
Well I’ll ask you your view. In retrospect wasn’t dumping Kevin Rudd a dumb idea in the first place?
MINISTER ARBIB:
I know that would give you a great line but I’m not going to go back and discuss the past. We’ve debated it, I’ve debated it in this studio before. What we’re about and what I’m about is getting on with our jobs. That’s what the Labor Party is trying to do. I know there has been a huge amount of speculation in the media but what we’re focused on is delivering for the Australian people. I think we are doing that now. It’s a matter of just being out there, in the public, making sure they understand what it means for them in terms of the benefits of a strong economy. We saw this week when the Coalition stood up to debate the economy and they’ve got nothing. They’ve got nothing, because in the end a Coalition Government will lead to job cuts, it will lead to services in decline and at the same time as that they can’t get the budget back into the black because they have a $70 billion black hole in their figures.
FRANKLIN:
Senator, you and others were described by some as faceless men at the time that there was the change. You brought your groups with you, the factions came along and decided that this was the right thing to do. Are some people in the right coming to you and saying, are you sure we’ve done the right thing? Look at the polls, are you having trouble keeping everyone in the tent?
MINISTER ARBIB:
I know this is getting speculated upon in the media day in and day out. But when I talk to MPs, we were back in Parliament for a week and I’ve spent a week talking to MPs. The focus is on their electorates, the focus is actually on doing their jobs and that’s what it should be.
FRANKLIN:
Well it wasn’t earlier in the week, surely you acknowledge that the people who want Kevin Rudd to be prime Minister are out there talking to journalists about it or do you agree with Wayne Swan that we’re all making it up?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Of course I agree with Wayne Swan, he’s the Treasurer and I’m the Assistant Treasurer. I agree with him always.
VAN ONSELEN:
So you’re telling the three of us that we’re all making it up.
MINISTER ARBIB:
No but at the moment there is a huge amount of speculation in the media and I think the vast majority of it is unwarranted. The people I’m talking to, the local MPs in the caucus, the ones who make the decisions are focused on doing their jobs and actually achieving for their electorates. That is what is important, that is what voters expect and that’s what the Labor Party should expect from their own MPs.
VAN ONSELEN:
Alright Minister let’s get to your twin portfolios, let’s start with sport and then we’ll spend some time on the economy after that. Copyright issues here and this is a real issue for the NRL in terms of broadcast rights on mobile phones and so forth. Is the Government going to legislate to protect the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of revenue streams that they will get out of a deal like that which has been threatened by the recent case in the Supreme Court?
MINISTER ARBIB:
The court case is a big thing for sport, there’s not too many things that can unite all the sports and the Olympic sports together but this court case has certainly united all our sports because they understand the threat. In the end if this court case stands then their revenues will take a big hit. As the Sports Minister the reason I am concerned about that is, when it plays itself out, the big losers will be those kids out on the playing field.
VAN ONSELEN:
So you’ll do something about it?
MINISTER ARBIB:
We met with, the Prime Minister, myself, Minister Conroy, Minister Roxon the Attorney General, met with the sports. They came down to Canberra because they are very worried, obviously. We’ve had discussions and we’re looking at our options. We’re looking at our legal options. At the same time as that, there are two big issues here. One is the copyright laws, and they have obviously been in place for a long period of time, and they’re being tested by changes in technology, so we need to strongly look at that. I think Minister Roxon has already announced that there is a review into copyright laws which will take some time to work through. At the same time as that you’ve got the issue of new technology and technology is moving so quick its something that all sporting administrators, all businesses and all community organisations need to take into account.
VAN ONSELEN:
But you see these as things to overcome to be able to do something about this court decision, to satisfy the NRL and to satisfy fans?
MINISTER ARBIB:
We’re examining what options we have and we believe this is an urgent situation. We need to act quickly. At the same time as that there are complex issues and obviously side impacts that need to be looked at and we’re going to work our way through that. We’ve had the discussions with the sports and we’ll obviously keep in contact.
GLENDA KORPORAAL:
How quickly do you move because you’ve got the sports, on Friday, saying they would appeal the court’s decision. But you’ve got a situation where the rugby league is renegotiating, right now or certainly this year. So they’re affected by this decision. So do you wait for the appeal to work its way through or will you look at, fairly quickly, amending the copyrights law?
MINISTER ARBIB:
We’re still looking at the options and obviously the Attorney General is getting legal advice in terms of where we can go from here. We understand the urgency for the NRL and the other sports but we need to act in the national interest.
VAN ONSELEN:
What’s your gut feeling on this? I mean, I realise you want to make sure you’re ticking all the boxes legally and in terms of stakeholders making sure you’re speaking to all the right people to make sure you don’t have unintended consequences, I get all of that. But what’s your gut feeling? Do you think something needs to be done legislatively here?
MINISTER ARBIB:
I think the sentiment is we understand that if the sports are losing revenue at this end, then where its going to end up is those kids on the sporting field are going to be paying more to play, are going to be paying more for their registration and are going to receive less. So we want to make sure as a government that those kids have the best possible sporting opportunities. That’s what its all about for us. We want to see every kid have the opportunity to get out and play sport. So we’re working through the issues and talking to all the sports concerned to try to get the decision right. But again, you can’t act too quickly. There are complex issues that we need to go through and also you need to keep an eye on the new technology because it's changing everyday. So, you might make a change to laws that is overridden by technology in six months, 12 months, 18 months, so you have to be careful with the way you deal with it.
KORPORAAL:
Another issue you’ve discussed in the past is the issue of illegal gambling and how that effects sports and the pressure on sportsmen. You’re also going to the Olympics this year, the International Olympics Committee has been quite concerned about monitoring illegal gambling. Where are you on about that? I think you’ve talked with the States about doing something on that, what can you do about that? But what can you do to control illegal gambling and also its implications and pressures on people in sport, on the playing field.
MINISTER ARBIB:
Look we’ve had good co-operation from people in the states. We’ve really had a good relationship here and we’ve got a national agreement to fight match fixing. The State Attorneys General are working on legislation to look at uniform criminal laws to fight match fixing. To send the message to those people who are interested in doing it and make sure the sentences are there, for up to 10 years. At the same time as that we’re working with the states on integrity agreements so that the sports can have an agreement with the betting agencies to ensure that information is flowing between the organisations because that is one of the quickest ways and the best ways to catch people out. Surveillance monitoring and prevention and that is why we are working so closely with sports. We’ve had great co-operation with them as well and the betting agencies, because they realise its in their interest here to make sure that the toughest laws possible are there. The one area though where we do want to see better co-operation and we want to see better results is at the international level. Because sport is international, corruption is international and we know the technology now means you can set up overseas and start gambling sites etc. So we need to make sure that all foreign countries are working together on this. The IOC has done a brilliant job. There was conference about a week and a half ago over in Switzerland where they talked about international measures but we need a world body. We need a world body that is working.
KORPORAAL:
You mean like a WADA, a World Anti-Doping Authority?
MINISTER ARBIB:
You need an organisation that would be similar to WADA, it wouldn’t have the same powers as WADA because in the end you want to maintain the roles of Interpol, you want to maintain the powers of the FBI and international law enforcement. But they need the support of a full time body that's providing them with monitoring surveillance information, but also prevention. A lot of this is about setting up education programs and making sure the sports have as much information as they can to provide intervention and also prevention and that’s, that’s the kind of thing that a world body could do.
VAN ONSELEN:
Why let a gambling organisation sponsor sport? I mean isn't it akin to alcohol or banned earlier smoking, it's the same sort of area that should be banned from sponsorship isn't it?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Well I've said before each and every football code or sporting body needs to make decisions about who they take sponsorship from -
VAN ONSELEN:
You can take that out of their hands, the same way that smoking advertising has been taken out of the hands of decisions by individual sporting groups.
MINISTER ARBIB:
The sporting codes would argue that they take sponsorship from gambling bodies and that's how they get a share of the profits those organisations make off the back of the content from the sports themselves. Where I am really concerned, and where the government is taking steps, is in terms of live odds, the promotion of live odds. The on thing that really gets me as a sporting consumer is sitting there with the kids watching sport and then up comes on the screen the odds on the game in terms of who's going to get the first wicket or what the new odds are and at the same time as that you get a commentator actually promoting those odds. So the Government is acting to ban that and we will ban that. We're working with the codes themselves and the industry to try and have self regulation but in the end if they don't regulate we'll ban it.
FRANKLIN:
That drives everybody crazy though. Why not, as Peter is suggesting, go the whole hog and just sever sponsorship from betting
agencies?
MINISTER ARBIB:
It is getting very, very tight for sports in terms of finances, we've seen that. So in the end this is a revenue stream for sport. Gambling is legal but at the same time as that each sport needs to.
FRANKLIN:
Smoking is legal. Alcohol consumption?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Ok, but there is no safe level of smoking, there is no safe level of smoking. In terms of gambling I mean there is some levels of gambling which isn’t harmful, but then you do get levels of gambling which is obviously harmful. But what we say to sports is you need to make sure set up, if you are going to accept sponsorship from gambling organisations, you need to set up processes within your own organisations and make sure that your players are not out there promoting gambling which they all put in place and to make sure that kids are not seeing the harmful benefits. And one of the other things that's come out of Minister Conroy’s work is to try ensure and ban those live adds at the ground so not just on the TV but when you go to the ground you won’t be seeing those odds on the scoreboards, on the sideboards and I think that stuff is all important.
VAN ONSELEN:
Alright the other portfolio of your is of course Assistant Treasurer. Now Tony Abbott during the week was pretty keen rhetorically at least to have a debate on the economy. Lets just have a quick look.
Clip of Tony Abbott
VAN ONSELEN:
Do you believe him?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Well, we put the blow torch on them for two minutes and their policies have gone with the wind. You know this is, I mean, think about this. You had Peter Costello, who was a good treasurer you now have the Liberal Party, the modern Liberal Party they don’t support a surplus so they’re not going to get the budget back into the black. They’ve got a $70 billion budget hole -
FRANKLIN:
Hang on
MINISTER ARBIB:
Ok
FRANKLIN:
There is no $70 billion budget hole. There is a $70 billion savings task. Can you, why do you keep on calling it a black hole? It doesn’t exist.
MINISTER ARBIB:
Well they don’t know, where is the actual funding going to come from? Here’s the thing. We know at the last election, they went into the last election they said all their policies had been costed, all their policies had been audited. We then find out that no they hadn’t been they’d just been ticked off by accounting firm which then got later fined, I think $5000, for a couple their members on the basis which they tried to jazz it up as audit, which it wasn't. And then when their books got brought in by Treasury after the election there was an $11 billion hole there, $11 billion. So now the task is much greater, the $70 billion hole and the Liberal Party has got to find the money for it. And the more we focus on their economic record this is not the Liberal Party of the old. This is a Liberal Party which really is economically incompetent. This side -
VAN ONSELEN:
Tony Abbott makes the point that it is the Liberal Party of the old, that a football team worth of his front bench were Ministers in the Howard Government.
MINISTER ARBIB:
Do you think Peter Costello would be out there preaching that we’re not going to get back in the black, that that is not our priority? That we don’t support tax cuts for small business? This is what the Liberal Party announced - they do not support tax cuts for small business, they voted against tax cuts for small business. And in fact, even worst than that, this is what’s coming up, through their paid parental leave scheme they will increase tax on companies in this country by 1.5 per cent without any compensation and every business group in the country has said this is a bad move, but the modern Liberal Party has decided they are going to increase taxes on companies. So here is the Labor Party reducing taxation for small business, putting in place an asset depreciation allowance. At the same time the Liberal Party is increasing the cost base for business, for small business. I mean, Peter Costello would be ashamed of this Liberal Party.
VAN ONSELEN:
But politicians are all the same aren’t they. You’re saying Peter Costello was a good Treasurer, that’s not what the Labor Party used to say in opposition. The Liberal Party are now saying Kevin Rudd was a reasonable Prime Minister compared to the current one. That’s not what they were saying when he was still Prime Minister.
MINISTER ARBIB:
No, no, I’m very reasonable about it. I think the major economic reforms in this country came through the Hawke and Keating Government. They put in place the big changes that were necessary and Peter Costello and John Howard managed the economy well. I don’t think, you can’t argue against that. My issue with Peter Costello and John Howard go down to spending, their spending levels were out of control and at the same time as that it wasn’t productive. They weren’t investing in infrastructure, they weren’t investing in education. In education, it was the second lowest funding level in the OECD and when Tony Abbott was the Health Minister he stripped a billion dollars out of the health system. They’re my problems with the Liberal Party. That the modern day Liberal Party when you’ve got Joe Hockey, Andrew Robb and Tony Abbott, really, the three amigos on economic policy they would drive this country into the ground.
FRANKLIN:
Let's forget about them for a minute. Let's think about you guys cause you’re in the Government, you’re in the Government. Dennis Shanahan was saying earlier there have to be huge cuts for you to be able to deliver a surplus in the promised time. Is the right word to use, huge? Are we going to expect cuts to services in the next budget?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Look, what Dennis doesn’t factor in is the work that has already taken place. I mean over the last four years we’ve created something like $100 billion worth of savings. This is a Government that has worked very hard to try and put the savings in place and you would have seen in the last mid year statement, MYEFO, there were more savings there. And we took some pretty hard decisions, like reducing down the baby bonus from -
FRANKLIN:
Yeah, I know that but I’m asking about what you’re going to do to get into surplus in the appointed time. Are you certain that you are going to get there without more cuts?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Well you’ve seen what the Prime Minister has said this week, that we are determined to get to a surplus and we will get to a surplus and the Treasurer has said the same thing. There is always difficult and challenging decision that need to be made and they will be made through the budget process. But we have taken some hard decisions to get the savings and these are savings that you wouldn’t have seen under the previous government. And they do provide obviously a stress on the bureaucracy, on the public service, but we took those calls.
VAN ONSELEN:
But it's a political surplus isn't it? The current one has blown out to $37 billion, we saw it move from 14 to 27 to 37 or there abouts and then suddenly the next year you're going to be in surplus. That is a hell of a turnaround and that's a political turnaround, surely you'd concede that?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Not at all. We've said from day one we've had a medium term economic strategy. During the worst of the GFC we stimulated the economy. But from day one there was always a plan to reduce down the spending. That was outlined from day one by Ken Henry and by the Treasurer, to reduce down the spending to make sure we return to more normal levels of government spending to allow the private sector to increase its scale in the economy. We've done that. We've followed the plan to a tee. But now we've been hit by revenue losses from overseas, we've taken hits to our capital gains, to our company taxes, which add up to about $140 billion. So we have had some challenging times through revenue losses because of what's happened internationally. If you talk to the Liberal Party, if you talk to Tony Abbott, it's like the GFC never happened. It's like there isn't a crisis over in Europe. And he talks the talk here. Over here when Tony Abbott is in this country he is constantly running down the economy, taking confidence out of the economy. And he goes overseas and you listen to him and it couldn't be better. "Oh we've got low debt, we're the envy of the world." I mean, come on. Please.
KORPORAAL:
You talk about the European situation at the moment, how concerned are you? You've got demonstrations in Greece over the weekend. You've got the possibility that Greece could possibly leave the Euro and the follow-on of that and the follow-on of the European debt crisis has been increased pressure on the banks - they've actually put up interest rates. So while on one hand the local economy is going well we've still got the threat out there of the European crisis and that flowing through to our economy with the pressure on the banks. So how concerned are you about the possible squalls out there and the impact on the economy here?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Everyone is concerned about what's happening in Europe. Two days ago we thought Greece had a deal in terms of their funding. Today who knows? So the sooner the Greece funding issue is sorted out, through their Parliament and then obviously through the European Central Bank and through the EU the better and I think that will provide a great deal of confidence and certainty for investors and for the markets.
VAN ONSELEN:
But on interest rates though, I mean what is your average punter supposed to think? They started the week believing by what all the economists were saying that there'd be an interest rate cut and the debate was whether or not the government could strong arm the banks into passing the whole thing on rhetorically and they've ended the week with in fact no interest rate cut and interest rates actually going up because the banks decided to act independently of the reserve bank.
MINISTER ARBIB:
I'm sure there are many Australians who are angry and upset with what's happened in the last couple of days and they have a right to be. It's pretty clear that some of the banks, the big banks, have decided to put the shareholders before their customers -
VAN ONSELEN:
That's hardly surprising though is it? The whole theory is they're not that needy towards their mortgage lending side of their business at the moment. It's not something that's going particularly well for them. So they would put their shareholders first and they would put other parts of their business ahead of the home lending part as the key element.
MINISTER ARBIB:
And one of the things during the GFC we saw a greater market concentration for the big banks and you saw a lot of those foreign banks leaving our shores going back home to take care of their domestic issues. The American banks, the European banks. So you’ve seen a concentration in competition and what we’re about, what Wayne Swan and the Government is about, is increasing competition for the big banks and make sure people have a choice. And the changes in terms of exit fees, mortgage exit fees, are absolutely crucial to Australians. So if you’ve got a mortgage and you don’t like what’s going on with your bank you can actually take your business elsewhere. You can walk. And I think the banks have relied for a long period of time on the fact that most people don’t like to change their banks, their banking institution. But things are changing. The changes now that Wayne Swan has bought in, you are now starting to see the small banking institutions, the mortgage holders to start increasing their level of, they’re increasing their books and already I think they’ve added something like $10 billion worth of work there.
FRANKLIN:
Judging by this week though, the rhetoric of Wayne Swan and Julia Gillard, sounds like your main game is bank bashing.
MINISTER ARBIB:
No, not at all. We want to make sure that Australians have freedom to leave their banks, to move to another organisation and to another institution if they believe they are not getting the best deal. This is about empowering consumers so they can get the best deal possible. And there are discounts out there. If you do investigate, if you do take the time you can find a better deal.
FRANKLIN:
You put these things in place, you’re right and you do deserve credit for doing so, but why is it that having put those things in place still the politician side of the politician feels the need to constantly go out bagging banks if they don’t do exactly what the Treasurer wants them to do. Why don’t you stick out of it? You’ve got ability for people to move, why don’t you just lay off?
MINISTER ARBIB:
Look there is a debate about profitability. We’ve said, and if you look at the Reserve Bank statement, when you look at the net interest margins, when you look at things like return on investment that the banks are extremely profitable. The return on equity now, they’re some of the best rates in the world. In terms of the net interest margins, they’ve returned to where they were pre-GFC and even the Reserve Bank noted there has been something like a 30 point decline in some of the lending costs of the banks over the last couple of weeks.
FRANKLIN:
So you’re saying they’re profiteering off people?
MINISTER ARBIB:
No we're saying, and this is something they've said themselves, I mean this is something I heard on radio from one of the chief operators from ANZ, they've made a decision to provide support to their shareholders. So unfortunately that means their consumers, and we're not just talking about people with a mortgage, we're also talking about small businesses. These are the people who keep the economy going. In this country we forget that 96 per cent of businesses are small and medium enterprises and they need support from the banks.
KORPORAAL:
How much intervention do you in a particular industry? We've sort of moved past the days of the Berlin Wall and yet there's this continual focus on one particular price which is the mortgage price in the economy. What about petrol prices, what about other prices? I mean how much does a government go in and pick a price and start, for political reasons, focusing on it? I mean the reality of life is we focus on the mortgage rates well then they will put up interest rates and we'll have higher than normal interest rates on small businesses. And also you've got a vast majority of people who can actually benefit from higher interest rates in terms of term deposits, on line deposits. Only a third of Australians have actual mortgages, so the minute you try to focus in on one particular product in an economy you start distorting other parts within that organisation. And when you stop. The old days of government setting prices and telling business what to do -
MINISTER ARBIB:
No one wants to go back to the days when government was setting interest rates. I mean we've got one of the best financial systems in the world and one of the reasons is because we've got an independent Reserve Bank and they make the calls in terms of the cash rate and the banks make their own calls in terms of their variable rates. But at the same time as that there needs to be competition within the system so that people are not captive to their banks and that competition is now there. You see the Japanese now looking to come in and that's going to be something important to see in terms of future competition and at the same time people can now change their mortgages. The exit fees have been banned but Australians just need to understand that they have the flexibility and freedom to leave their banks. It's going to take a bit of time, but that change will happen.
KORPORAL:
What is the relationship with the business community? I mean it really seemed by Friday night that you had ANZ coming and putting their rates up and then you had Gail Kelly almost like "I'll see you and I'll raise you" and who knows what the Commonwealth Bank is going to do next week. You've actually got a lot of tension, you've had Heather Ridout saying "Well stop fighting in Canberra and let's get on with it". Is there increasing tension with the business community and with Labor?
MINISTER ARBIB:
No, no, we've got a good relationship with business and we support business because from our end business provides jobs, that's the key thing, and if business isn't going well then people aren't in jobs and we want to make sure that Australians stay in jobs.
VAN ONSELEN:
Minister you've been very generous with your time, we'll let you go. One quick final question, we've got Paul Howes coming up later in the program, he said today in his Sunday Telegraph column that he doesn't like Glenn Stevens the head of the Reserve Bank, do you agree with him about that?
MINISTER ARBIB:
No. I think that Glenn Stevens is a good man and he also does a good job. He's the head of an independent Reserve Bank. They make their decisions independently of government, they've got their own Board and that's a very good thing.
VAN ONSELEN:
Alright. Mark Arbib we appreciate you joining us on Australian Agenda, thank you for your company.