HAMISH MACDONALD:
Michael Sukkar is here, along with Linda Burney from the Opposition. Michael Sukkar, why this change of heart on a measure like this?
MINISTER SUKKAR:
Well Hamish obviously these are extraordinary circumstances and this is an extraordinary response. As some of the other panellists have said, this has been a very calibrated and methodical approach. At first instance, when it became clear that the economy, as a result of the health crisis, was going to suffer, we really focussed on strengthening the safety net. Once it became clear that unemployment was going to rise, we felt that strengthening that safety net was the first and most important step which we did. We also put in place instant support for small and medium enterprises, to try and help them, to the greatest extent possible, hold onto as many of those employees as possible which meant that they didn’t need to access that additional support.
MACDONALD:
Sure, but on that very point, many employers did actually get rid of staff because they didn’t think that something like this measure was on the way. Do you accept that?
SUKKAR:
Well, Hamish, this has deteriorated very quickly. I think everyone accepts that it’s moved very quickly, it’s evolved and it has deteriorated and as we have shown, we are able and we are willing to be agile and deal with each problem as it comes. I think that the words extraordinary and unprecedented have been used for this package because we obviously are faced with extraordinary and unprecedented times. That has been the modus operandi of the government but strengthening that safety net at the beginning was the key focus and since then, it has been about ‘how do we keep people connected to their employment’, because we know that it’s not just an economic issue, it’s a societal and mental health issue and in the end, this will enable Australia to be in a position to take advantage, hopefully, of an improving economy once the health crisis ends.
MACDONALD:
I’m just trying to establish though, whether you acknowledge that some businesses would’ve laid off staff in recent weeks, because the government was saying that there wouldn’t be something like what had been rolled out in the UK?
SUKKAR:
Well really importantly, today’s announcement, Hamish, allows for employees who were connected with their employers on 1 March, so some weeks ago, to be able to be a part of this scheme. So, if you have been an employee who has been stepped down or lost your job, you will be able to re-engage with your employer, as a part of the JobKeeper allowance. So, it’s a recognition from us that this has moved very quickly, we’ve got to be pretty novel in how we’ve approached it, and that’s exactly what we’ve done.
MACDONALD:
Linda Burney, were you surprised at this turnaround?
LINDA BURNEY:
Hello panel, hello Hamish and hello Michael. This was a surprise and a welcome surprise. I think that as Jennifer said, just last week the Government was ridiculing the idea of a wage subsidy to keep people connected to their employer. The Labor Party has been constrictive and worked with the Government and supported the Government throughout this crisis and it is a crisis. I spoke with some people in Centrelink lines on Monday and they were terrified, they were scared and they were stressed and we must always remember that people are at the heart of this. This $130 billion announcement today is very welcome and the Labor Party does welcome it. There are some groups that are gapingly going to miss out and I’m sure that we’ll come to that but when you have a look at this package today, it is about keeping people connected to their employer. We know that it is also very welcome that it is going to cover casuals but the bar that has been set is that, if you’re a casual, you need to have been with that employer for twelve months and the employer must demonstrate that 30 per cent of their revenue has been lost because of coronavirus. They are the measures that need to be understood.
MACDONALD:
On that very point, Linda Burney, we’ve got a series of very practical questions, Michael Sukkar, about these payments. From Jen Axford, she wants to know how this applies for casual workers who work for multiple employers?
SUKKAR:
Well you nominate one employer. So, for a casual that’s got multiple employers, you nominate one and provided that that employer nominates you as well, then that is your primary employer for the purposes of the JobKeeper payment and you obviously receive one payment of $1,500 per fortnight.
MACDONALD:
And will this, apply – this is essentially a question about uni students – will this apply to casual employees who have received ongoing and regular, systematic rostered hours but over a prolonged period?
SUKKAR:
Well the rules are quite clear as stated in today’s announcement which means that you’ve got to have been employed for twelve months by that employer as of 1 March. That is the broad test that we’re putting in place for casual employees and I think that it’s important to note here – and I’m sure Linda would acknowledge this – that a few days ago, the argument was about extending this to part time employees. I don’t think that anyone expected that the Government would extent it as far as casuals. We thought that that was very important to do because obviously they need to stay – to the greatest extent possible – connected to their employers as well. So, we’ve been really expansive in how we’ve taken the JobKeeper payment forward and that has obviously extended in a broad way, to casuals too.
MACDONALD:
On contractors, Sean Ryan as written in that he’s an Uber driver, he says that we’re considered contractors. In terms of the $1,500 per fortnight JobKeeper payment, does he approach the Government for that himself or does he have to get Uber to register and declare him viable for that?
SUKKAR:
Well look it depends on your employment relationship but if you are – and the question came up a bit earlier about self-employed individuals or sole traders – if you’re operating as a sole trader, you’re self employed and you’ve got an ABN, you can apply yourself. If you go to ato.gov.au, you can register an intention to apply, even as a sole trader or someone who is self-employed, for the JobKeeper payment. Before I walked into this studio, Hamish, we’d had 65,000 businesses who had already registered for the JobKeeper payment so that does extend to self-employed individuals as well.
MACDONALD:
Linda Burney, what are you hearing from constituents about how confused they are, and the challenges in terms of actually trying to navigate this?
BURNEY:
There have been numerous calls by people that are confused. Why the Government decided to change the name of Newstart to JobSeeker last week was a bit mysterious but you’ve got the JobSeeker payment, the JobKeeper payment and then the $750 stimulus payments that you’ve spoken to. People are confused about if they’ve registered with Centrelink, with an intent to claim the JobSeeker payment, what does it mean in terms of if they are eligible or their employer is eligible for the JobKeeper payment. They are the sorts of very confused messages that we’re getting apart from the many calls that we’re getting from people that are trapped overseas.
MACDONALD:
Okay. Well we know that many businesses are struggling, I’ve been to meet one pub manager that is doing it tough.
BUSINESS EMPLOYEE:
Hi, I’m Jana. I’m 23 and I’ve worked at the Cricketers Arms for five years and up until a week ago, I was employed full time. I’m now unemployed and waiting to get on Centrelink. When we noticed that it was getting quitter, the prospect of having to shut down become real. We felt that it was better to stop now and then we’d have a better chance of opening in a few months if we did stop. We let go close to 15 people, kitchen and bar staff, security, DJ’s, bands, people that have worked here for years. It’s heartbreaking, this place is normally heaving on a Friday and Saturday night. It’s so sad to see it empty. We probably have over 50 kegs of beer. Hundreds and hundreds of cases of beer in the cellar.
MACDONALD:
How much is that worth?
BUSINESS EMPLOYEE:
I would say close to $30,000.
MACDONALD:
When you look at that sort of stockpile there in the cellar, what do you think? What goes through your mind?
BUSINESS EMPLOYEE:
It was really sad. It’s a huge waste, not knowing what to do with it.
MACDONALD:
How far does the Centrelink payment go for you?
BUSINESS EMPLOYEE:
I don’t know how far it will go for me. It will just cover my rent and groceries for the week but it’s not going to cover any bills. I have a little bit of savings behind me but if I’m waiting for mid to late April for that payment, that will definitely burn through to cover rent and bills for that time. I feel uncertain because there’s no time-frame on this. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I don’t know how long I’ll be in this predicament for. There is light at the end of the tunnel but what’s it going to look like when we come out on the other end? I don’t know when things are going to be normal again.
MACDONALD:
Are you scared?
BUSINESS EMPLOYEE:
I am, but it hasn’t hit me yet. It doesn’t feel real.
MACDONALD:
Well, Michael Sukkar, what does Jana do, what do her staff do? Do they withdraw their application to Centrelink now and then try and get this JobKeeper allowance instead?
SUKKAR:
Well it’s very sobering to hear Jana’s story and I think that so many of us even on shows like this focus on the very macro picture but there are real people and real lives and real anxieties behind it. The arrangements that will be in place are that if an employer is going to be nominating an employee for the JobKeeper payment, which is a higher payment than the JobSeeker payment, I wouldn’t encourage anybody to withdraw an application. The ATO, Services Australia, where there are applications for both, will work out administrative arrangements to ensure that those individuals get the JobSeeker payment so I would caution them not to withdraw an application at this point in time. For Jana and all of the employees as the Cricketers Arms, the JobKeeper payment will be available to them and at $1,500 per fortnight, is obviously higher than the JobSeeker payment and we haven’t mentioned the Coronavirus Supplement at $550 a fortnight. So, that will be available to them…interrupted.
MACDONALD:
Just to be clear, you’re saying that they should keep in multiple applications both for the JobSeeker and the JobKeeper?
SUKKAR:
I wouldn’t encourage anybody to withdraw an application at the moment because we have got a registration process now for employers who will register employees. As and when that is processed and there is an individual who is prima facie entitled to both payments, administrative arrangements will be put in place to make sure that they get the JobKeeper payment and at that point in time, all of the other applications will be removed.
MACDONALD:
So, the Government will preference somebody getting the JobKeeper payment over the JobSeeker one?
SUKKAR:
Well, if you are applying for JobKeeper, if your employer is nominating you for JobKeeper, that is the payment that you will receive. If you want the JobSeeker payment, and not the JobKeeper payment, if course you are entitled to do that too, but you will receive one payment and you will have to fulfil the criteria of that. But you asked my advice at the beginning, Hamish, as to whether they should withdraw their application for the JobSeeker payment, I wouldn’t suggest that they do that and there will be administrative arrangements that I am sure as you’d appreciate, need to be put in place between now and this being legislated, to make that as smooth as possible for everybody.
MACDONALD:
Linda Burney, I can see you shaking your head at that explanation.
BURNEY:
Well the story of Jana, I agree with Michael, is a very sobering one. But what she really told s, Hamish, is that no one knows how long this is going to go on. That there’s going to be a major social reset after this across the world and she’s also saying that she doesn’t feel like it’s real. They’re feelings that I think so many people are experiencing. I agree that if Jana has registered for Centrelink for the old Newstart payment, the JobSeeker payment, she should keep that registration in. But she would be eligible for the JobKeeper payment, the one that was announced today by Scott Morrison. The other point that I think that we need to take out of Jana’s story is that it is one of millions of stores across this country and the rate of unemployment, which I’m sure people will comment on, is going to be something like 11 or 12 per cent. Now we have been here before and that was the great depression of course and during the financial crisis. As Scott Morrison likes to say, when we get to the other side, well I think what Jana’s asking is, ‘what is the other side’?
MACDONALD:
All right. Our next two questions are from Sharon Curry in Moruya and Susan Thomas in Carlton, Victoria.
QUESTION:
My question to the panel is, I’m a hairdresser and I really don’t see this industry as an essential service. Hairdressing salons are allowed to continue operating. This is very confusing to me seeing as though I know the advice that we are continually hearing is ‘no physical touching and keeping a safe distance away from other people. This is an impossibility in this industry. I feel we are putting ourselves and our families at risk. If we decide to self-isolate, then will we be entitled to the new JobSeeker payment?
QUESTION 2:
I’m finding that the Government is giving mixed messages around coronavirus. I am currently physically isolating myself from my grandchildren because I am 63 years old and I am following the Government’s advice. I am also an early childhood educator where I work on the floor, directly with children and my colleagues, in a long day-care centre, and I’m allowed to work. Now I know that I could chose not to work but I am a single woman on a low income living in social housing living pay-to-pay. How do I pay my rent, my food and my bills if I don’t work?
MACDONALD:
Linda Burney, this speaks to a lot of the questions that we’ve had where people find themselves in predicaments that they just can’t seem to find their way out of right now. What do they do?
BURNEY:
Well I think that what we saw there was one of the concerns that many people have and that is confusion about mixed messages. You’ve got the Federal Government saying one thing, you’ve got the State Governments saying another thing and I think that Local Governments should have more of a say about what happens at the local level.
MACDONALD:
But should people be obliged to work if they know that they’re at risk by doing it?
BURNEY:
I think that the important thing is that, which we’re all doing, is to follow directions, particularly the health directions as much as is possible which both of the woman that just spoke then are doing. They have made wise decisions but they Government needs to understand - and so does business – that those wise decisions throw up incredibly complex circumstances which we’ve just heard and the most important thing that people want is that they want clear, conscience, honest messaging with accountability.
MACDONALD:
Michael Sukkar, can you understand why someone like Susan is confused? She’s told to go to work and be amongst children but then when she’s at home, she shouldn’t be with her grandchildren because she’s at risk.
SUKKAR:
Well, Hamish, obviously all of these decisions have come out of an unprecedented National Cabinet. Some people have referred to it as a bit of a wartime cabinet which has brought together the Prime Minister and every State Premier and Territory Chief Minister and it’s a body of consensus and it brings to the table the best health advice. I know for example, that in my home state of Victoria that protocols are certainly put in place for those people deemed to be in a higher risk category, whether it be because of their age or co-morbidities but I think that again, that there’s no rule book here, this is very…interrupted.
MACDONALD:
But with respect can you see why someone like that is confused right now?
SUKKAR:
I can understand, Hamish, why this being a very quickly evolving process where we’ve had a relatively light-touch approach to now, quite a heavy-handed approach of people essentially being asked to stay at home and having moved so quickly, of course I can understand, Hamish, that confusion. What I’m saying is that this is an imperfect situation that we now find ourselves in. I know that the Prime Minister and the Premiers and the Chief Minister and all of their health advisors are doing their level-best to try and manage the health objectives. But also, to go back to the question earlier in the show, not to be cavalier about decisions that would destroy somebody’s livelihoods and destroy their business as Jana pointed out, the real-life example of how it impacts people. Trying to manage those two things has meant– in conjunction with it being a quickly evolving system – that yes, of course there is some confusion but we have worked day and night, I can assure you, to try and get the message out to people, what the expectations of the National Cabinet are, how they can mitigate the risk for themselves and their families and their loved ones and we’ve got to keep working on it - we will – and we’ll keep trying our hardest.
MACDONALD:
Okay, one question now from Damian Gelle from Bondi Junction in New South Wales.
QUESTION:
Damian Gelle asked: My name is Damian Gelle from the Electric Gardens Music Festival I'm a music promoter and my question is to Michael Sukkar, your stimulus package is for employers to keep on employees, but all my workers are contractors, my full-time workers are contractors my part-time workers are contractors, there are 700 contractors before a large event. Music promoters are cancelling events left, right and centre and having to hand out refunds - there is no stimulus package and there is a cash crisis. There has been a better reaction around the world for this from other governments - what is your government going to do in this crisis?
MACDONALD:
So, can he doing anything to keep those workers on under the new arrangements?
SUKKAR:
Well again, Hamish, it really depends on the relationship and what we are doing is trying to maintain that employment relationship between employers and employees but as I said earlier, for those who are self-employed or are sole traders, which sounds as though some of his contractors would fall into that boat, that they will also be entitled to apply for the JobKeeper payment. I know that Paul Fletcher, the Communications Minister is sitting down with industry and looking at ways that we can assist because…interrupted.
MACDONALD:
So, they would apply as individual sole traders, they wouldn’t be able to do something in connection with this individual who they’re working with and have been working with over a long period of time?
SUKKAR:
Yeah correct. As announced today, Hamish, they would do that in their own right. But as I think has been highlighted, our first package, $17 billion, our second package, $66 billion, today, $133 billion, we are keen to do whatever we can to assist impacted industries and I know that the Communications Minister is engaging on this. This is not the end of the story, this will evolve, our response will keep evolving and that’s the assurance that I can provide as far as the arts industry goes.
MACDONALD:
Michael Sukkar, Linda Burney, thank you very much for being with us.