13 July 2020

Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC News Afternoon Briefing

Note

Topics: COVID-19 pandemic in Victoria and New South Wales, economic support measures.

Patricia Karvelas:

Michael Sukkar is the Assistant Treasurer and the Housing Minister, and he joins me now.  Michael Sukkar, welcome.

Minister Sukkar:

Hi Patricia, good to be with you. 

Patricia Karvelas:

Just before we get to your portfolio.  21 new coronavirus cases in New South Wales including in Casula and now the Star Casino.  Are you worried that New South Wales is headed for another lockdown that might mirror Melbourne?

Minister Sukkar:

I wouldn’t say that I’m necessarily worried about them heading towards another lockdown but I think that there’s a permanent level of worry that we have in all states and territories, even those that are not presenting with significantly higher cases because as the PM has made clear from the beginning and indeed the National Cabinet, there are going to be instances where there are breakouts from time to time until we have a vaccine. That’s why we have placed a whole lot of emphasis, of course, on the COVID-Safe app but also on the contact tracing capabilities at a state and territory level, because it’s very important that we get on top of those outbreaks quickly, do the contact tracing, lock everybody down that needs to be locked down. I think that that is almost going to be business as usual for a while for us, Patricia, and that is little flare-ups here and there but the appropriate response will need to be putting a ring of steel around those outbreaks and making sure that they don’t get more widespread. 

Patricia Karvelas:

You mentioned little outbreaks but Melbourne’s far from little, it’s in fact a pretty big place.  The shutdown in Victoria is expected to cost around $1 billion a week.  How much could a second shut down in potentially New South Wales, add to that?

Minister Sukkar:

Well I think that the Victorian case is not a little outbreak.  I was really just referring to the New South Wales case.  Obviously, the Victorian experience is a much more widespread outbreak and it seems to be a result of some quite catastrophic issues with hotel quarantine arrangements here in Victoria.  But as to the costs, there are significant costs here for Victoria, as you’ve rightly pointed out – over $1 billion a week.  What that will do for unemployment, for businesses, some businesses that sadly never returned and some jobs that never returned, we won’t know for a little while yet, but we know that the risk is certainly on the major downside there.  If that was to be replicated in a bigger city like Sydney or New South Wales more broadly or in any other state and territory, obviously that just gets exacerbated.  So, Victoria is an economic engine room of this country, about 25 per cent of our economy.  I’d still argue that it is the manufacturing heart of Australia so the impact that this significant issue that we’re focussing on in Victoria at the moment and what that will have for the economy more broadly, is quite major, and of course for the budget as well in October. 

Patricia Karvelas:

Are steps being taken to try and avoid the sort of outbreaks in public housing in New South Wales that we’ve seen in Victoria? You’re housing minister, of course, housing is where these outbreaks have happened, in these public housing blocks, known as the blocks, now.  Are you worried about that?

Minister Sukkar:

Well again, Patricia, I think that all housing ministers and health ministers at a state level and indeed all premiers and chief ministers, are concerned around any areas that have got high density.  I think that if you look at the experience out of Europe, certainly out of North America as well, clearly where you’ve got higher density, the issues tend to be more acute as far as COVID-19 goes so that would apply to high density public housing as it would to high density housing anywhere.  There are some parts of our country where public and social housing is not high density and I don’t think that you would necessarily expect to see higher incidents of COVID-19 there.  So, I think that it’s more of a density question, Patricia…interrupted

Patricia Karvelas:

It is a density question; I think that’s right.  But how do you think that the Victorian Government has managed those outbreaks in public housing towers?

Minister Sukkar:

Look, Patricia, I’m not going to be a commentator on it.  I think that there’s no doubt…interrupted

Patricia Karvelas:

But you’re the housing minister federally.  I’d imagine that you were in conversations about the management of those public housing towers.  Do you think it was done well?

Minister Sukkar:

Well no, the public housing towers are the assets of the State Government.  They own and they manage them, they have full responsibility over them.  I know that they’ve been trying their absolute best.  As I said, I think it seems pretty clear that the failure in Victoria that sets Victoria apart from the rest of the country has been the quite catastrophic circumstances around hotel quarantine and that has had an effect throughout some parts of Victoria which is why we’re in the lockdown that we’re in now.  As for the specific arrangements that have been put in place for the Victorian public housing blocks, you’d need to really speak to the Victorian housing minister as they’re the government that owns them and operates them.

Patricia Karvelas:

Do you think that the Victorian Government has failed in its management of COVID-19?

Minister Sukkar:

No, Patricia, I think that everybody’s trying their absolute best at a time when there’s certainly no rule book at how to deal with this. That doesn’t mean that there haven’t been significant errors made along the way and I think that in time, we’ll do a stocktake on what those things are.  It’s important as well though, that we learn as we go because we certainly don’t want to find ourselves in this situation again.  So again, as far as what I think have been some pretty clear failings with hotel quarantine, I’d hope that they are being addressed in real time by the Victorian Government.  I’m sure they are.  I also welcome today, that the State Government has accepted the offer of additional ADF personnel which is just going to help all of those things because the ADF personnel will undertake checkpoints, testing, quarantining.  It effectively will be there to do whatever they can to assist the Victorian State Government and that will take pressure off their resources which means that they can do the contact tracing more quickly, that they can put in place better arrangements for hotel quarantine which I think have been lacking and which has probably led to the position that we’re in now.  So, I think that we’re getting there, Patricia, but I’m not going to gratuitously criticise.  There’s no rule book for this but of course, every government will have to be accountable.

Patricia Karvelas:

Okay so if there’s no rule book, should people watching just expect more mistakes?

Minister Sukkar:

Patricia, I wouldn’t say that. I mean I think that people should expect their governments – a state government or the Federal Government or the National Cabinet – to make wise decision, there’s no doubt about it.  We should hold governments accountable for the decisions they make.  As for the hotel quarantine arrangements that were put in place in Victoria that I think that most would accept have been inadequate? Of course, people have a right to be disappointed about that but again, I don’t think that we should extrapolate that to ministers or governments not trying their best.  Making bad decisions or making bad errors, I think has occurred, certainly in the hotel quarantine arrangements but I don’t think you can extrapolate that across every government or indeed every decision of a single government. 

Patricia Karvelas:

Well the Treasurer says that the effective unemployment rate is 13.3 per cent.  How is the situation in Victoria changed your calculations around JobKeeper and JobSeeker? I mean that is now a completely different conversation isn’t it if Victoria is back in lockdown?

Minister Sukkar:

Well I’m not sure that I entirely agree with you, Patricia.  Yes, of course Victoria going back into lockdown perhaps changes some of our thoughts about how quickly, certainly Victoria, but Australia more broadly, is going to spring out of COVID-19.  But remember, the most significant structural support that we’ve put in place – being the JobKeeper program – runs until the end of September which is long after even the Victorian lockdown is due to end…interrupted

Patricia Karvelas:

Sure, but that’s all pretty optimistic isn’t it? That Victoria is going to be all up and running by September if Victoria has had to deal with – or Melbourne specifically – two lockdowns?

Minister Sukkar:

Well all that we can go on is the time frame that the Victorian Government has put in place so at present, JobKeeper will exceed the time at which that lockdown ends.  Now… interrupted

Patricia Karvelas:

Sure, but my question is, and I know that I’ve been rudely interrupting, but the point of my question is, businesses shut down, then they restart at minimised levels and then they have to be forced to shut down again.  The economic proposition of those businesses being able to sustainably open again has now changed, hasn’t it?

Minister Sukkar:

Devastating.  It’s changed in a devastating way, there’s no doubt about it.  There are… interrupted

Patricia Karvelas:

So many of them won’t reopen, Minister?

Minister Sukkar:

No doubt, Patricia.  You are right.  There are many businesses who did all that they could do survive the first lockdown and they will be very hard-pressed, if not find it impossible to survive this second lockdown, which is again why I acknowledge why so many people would be very angry about the circumstances which have caused this second lockdown.  Having said that, the key economic support that we’ve put in place – which applies nationally and applies broadly – will be in place long after the lockdown ends.  Now, there’s no set-and-forget as far as the economic support that we’ve put in place and we’ll have more to say in the economic statement later this month and again at the Budget in October.  But if you look at the support that we’ve put in place – whether it’s JobKeeper, JobSeeker, cashflow boost for businesses, early release for superannuation, the stimulus payment that you’ve been speaking about today which will be hitting five million households from today – we have thrown the absolute kitchen sink – for want of a better term – at this problem.  At no point have we said ‘right, that’s it, we’ve got everything in place and nothing changes’.  As circumstances change, Australians can have confidence that the Government will adjust our settings as appropriate. 

Patricia Karvelas:

And does that mean, I mean you’re sitting around the table as a Victorian as well as obviously in an economic portfolio.  You’ll be making the case that – given that your state has been so hard hit – that those measures now have to be really, really carefully thought about because if you pull out the rug now or reduce those supports, that could be devastating for Melbourne?

Minister Sukkar:

I think that as a Federal Government, we will always focus on putting in place broad support and areas of the country that are suffering more than others will call on that support more than others.  I don’t want to see any state or territory in the position that Victoria is in now but as we started this interview, there are going to be – until there is a vaccine – clusters around the country where there are issues.  Where those occur, you can have some faith that the Government will have in place, broad schemes that from time to time, will be drawn on more by some jurisdictions than others depending on their relative circumstances.  So, we will – I can assure you – keep a very close eye on how the economy is going, how investment is going, what needs to be done to encourage demand, what needs to be done to support businesses to hold onto employees or indeed in some instances, to take on employees and where it is more acute in one place or another in the country, we will have enough flexibility in our programs to make sure that it can do the job in those particular places. 

Patricia Karvelas:

Just finally, what psychological impact do you think that this second shutdown has had in Melbourne, generally? What is the mood in your state?

Minister Sukkar:

Well, Patricia, I must say that it’s been really demoralising.  I think that a lot of Victorians saw the light at the end of the tunnel from the first lockdown.  There are a lot of people who are really isolated and are really felling it and the prospect of six more weeks of this, they understand that it is absolutely necessary, they understand that they’ve got to do their duty as an Australian and a Victorian to do so, but it is really tough.  I know people in my own life and friends and others, who I think are struggling much more with this second lockdown than they were with the first.  So, I think that demoralising is probably the word.  I’m hoping that we can use that feeling to motivate us all to do the right thing, to make sure that this is the last lockdown and at the same time, hope that the Victorian State Government can solve some of the issues that caused this second lockdown to make sure that we don’t have to suffer it again.

Patricia Karvelas:

Thanks for joining us. 

Minister Sukkar:

Thanks so much, Patricia.