Patricia Karvelas:
Well today marks the beginning of national homelessness week. It comes as CoreLogic data out today shows Australian home values have risen 1.6 per cent over the past month. To discuss this, housing and homelessness Minister, Michael Sukkar, joins me now from Canberra. Welcome to the program.
Minister Sukkar:
Hi, Patricia. Great to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas:
Now Minister we have a perfect storm, it seems, for homelessness at the moment. We’ve got the lockdowns throwing people out of work, house prices and rents going through the roof. We’ve got – in regional areas – vacancy rates so low that as many as I think 40 people are queued up for every rental. Do you agree that we’re seeing a national housing crisis?
Minister Sukkar:
Well, Patricia, we’ve certainly seen a range of unexpected consequences of the Covid‑19 pandemic. What we did see was very swift action with eviction moratoriums in particular when Covid‑19 hit and other legislative reforms from state governments in relation to things like renters rights, effectively. The Commonwealth Government obviously put in place huge amounts of fiscal support, whether that was JobKeeper, JobSeeker, Cash Flow Boost and of course – through the National Cabinet – negotiated a number of those arrangements for renters. We also, as a Federal Government, spend up to nearly $9 billion each and every year supporting homelessness but also supporting those in social, affordable and assisted housing. Those investments have continued and indeed in some areas and for some priority cohorts, those investments have also increased. So if you look at the current state of play, Patricia, there is some certainly unusual consequences from the Covid‑19 pandemic, some of them difficult, some of them surprising in the upside. For example, first home buyers are at their highest levels for nearly 15 years. With the support of the HomeBuilder program that the Morrison Government put in place, we’ve now got more first home buyers than we’ve seen for nearly 15 years which again is an unexpected feature of the Covid‑19 pandemic.
Patricia Karvelas:
But do you agree that there’s a crisis when you’re seeing particularly some of these situations as I’ve painted for you including people in regional areas struggling to get rentals, that we’ve got a big problem on our hands in this country?
Minister Sukkar:
I think that there are always challenges in the housing market, always. What we’ve seen is some of those challenges have moved depending on movements of people. For example, as you quite rightly say, we’re seeing more pressure in regional areas because we’re seeing population increases in those areas that has meant places with relatively less housing stock that haven’t had – historically – rental shortages, are now seeing those. There’s no doubt that there’s been, in some parts of the country, a shift in where the problems have been. If we look at the solutions to virtually all of those problems, Patricia as you know as someone who has looked into housing very closely over many years, is the supply of housing. You need to increase the supply of housing where the issues are most acute and that’s really the only long term way to solve these sorts of problems.
Patricia Karvelas:
Now you’re the Minister for Homelessness and for Social Housing and as I say, it’s homelessness week. Do you think the Federal Government is really doing enough? Because I know you spend $1.6 billion on social housing and homelessness but I think in 2013, the Federal Government was spending $2 billion so why are we going…it’s not growing at the same rate as it was, right?
Minister Sukkar:
No, Patricia, the Government wasn’t spending $2 billion. The Government was spending $1.3 billion and we’re now spending $1.6 billion. In addition to that, we spend $5.5 billion a year on Commonwealth Rent Assistance and that has increased exponentially just over the last few years. So we’re increasing the number of people that we’re supporting through Commonwealth Rent Assistance and, Patricia, probably one of the landmark achievements I think, of the Morrison Government in the housing space has been the establishment of the National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation which has been applauded by the entire industry, by everybody in community housing, by states and territories. It’s led to the delivery or supporting 13,000 new dwellings in just 2.5 years, that’s 13,000 new dwellings of social and affordable housing. Huge investments, huge additional investments and through the National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation, we’ve created this vehicle that means Federal Government support can be even bigger and even better.
Patricia Karvelas:
When I refer to it, I also include indigenous housing which is the other $500 million in that component. I know historically that you’ve argued that the states have a bigger role but I know that the constitution is kind of silent on this issue, right? And the Federal Government has been in this space for many, many years. Do you think now that the focus is very much on homelessness this week that the Federal Government should be doing more heavy lifting so that it’s not just during Covid that you help homeless people and you put them in hotels as the states have been doing, it becomes a permanent feature of the way we run this country?
Minister Sukkar:
Well, Patricia the point I’m making to you is that we have made additional investments each and every year and we’re investing more now than the former government was, contrary to their claims…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
Well isn’t investment going backwards in real terms?
Minister Sukkar:
Well no it’s not, Patricia, I have to disagree with you.
Patricia Karvelas:
Homelessness Australia put out data today. Let me put the data to you. It shows that that $2 billion investment in 2013 would be worth $2.6 now because that’s inflation, population growth, that’s the way money grows?
Minister Sukkar:
No, Patricia, that was a media release from the Labor Party. You’re confusing two documents.
Patricia Karvelas:
No I’m not. It’s the Homelessness Australia data. Homelessness Australia put out the data, Minister. I was not talking to the Labor Party.
Minister Sukkar:
Well this is not open to interpretation, Patricia. The National Affordable Housing Agreement – as it was then known – was a $1.3 billion payment from the Federal Government to the states and territories. It’s now $1.6 billion under the National Housing and Homelessness Agreement which was renamed and was renegotiated by the Prime Minister when he was the Treasurer and I was his Assistant so I know it very well. In that, we also made certain homelessness funding which was subject to ongoing agreements between the states and territories and the Commonwealth. We were the first government to make that funding certain because we thought it was very important that homelessness providers who were receiving that additional money from the Morrison Government were able to bank on that each and every year to ensure that their programs could continue. So that’s what our achievements have been but in addition to homelessness, you have to look at the entire housing spectrum and that’s why I talk about the National Housing Finance Investment Corporation supporting or building 13,000 new dwellings because those are people who are at risk of homelessness each and every day. Being able to house those additional 13,000…well it’s more than 13,000 people, its 13,000 dwellings, is so crucially important. Then finally, in supporting and ensuring – in the middle of a pandemic – that our housing industry through HomeBuilder continued and that first home buyers are now at record levels, it takes pressure of that entire housing continuum which – let’s not forget – includes the 30 per cent of Australians who rent. Renters shouldn’t be forgotten here and renters, sadly, were forgotten by the Labor Party for many years when they were proposing their housing taxes that they’ve just quietly dropped after six years of arguing for the housing taxes, Patricia, they’ve just quietly dropped them.
Patricia Karvelas:
I don’t want to talk about Labor.
Minister Sukkar:
Well it’s very important in the housing space. It’s very, very important to talk about their plans for housing taxes.
Patricia Karvelas:
A big topic of discussion this year has been the Government’s response to women’s safety. Domestic and family violence is the biggest driver of homelessness. A lot of the evidence shows that women who escape violence get stuck in homelessness and this is a huge issue. Is this going to be an element of your response to women’s safety? There’s that big summit in September but it doesn’t actually talk about housing?
Minister Sukkar:
Well we’ve already put in place significant investment into a new Safer Places initiative for women fleeing domestic violence. Nearly $90 million, which is again a really important cohort that we’ve sort to provide additional assistance to. So we’ve done that and we’re seeing some of the fruits of that but sadly domestic violence as a scourge in our society, hasn’t gone anywhere. Those additional investments will be making some impact but no doubt we’re going to have to keep an effort and keep committed to assisting. In relation to the women’s summit, housing will be a feature of various aspects to that summit. Housing is crucial to women’s economic security.
Patricia Karvelas:
It is, to safety.
Minister Sukkar:
It’ll be crucial in their economic security, it’ll be crucial to their personal safety. Housing will be a big feature of that summit and indeed it will cut across many aspects of the various items on that agenda.
Patricia Karvelas:
Just to be clear because I know that program you mentioned. Yes, it does exist but it’s under $100 million, it’s not a lot of money so you’re saying that there will be more investment in this?
Minister Sukkar:
Well, Patricia, I don’t agree with you. I think that is a huge mischaracterisation. That is a new program, Patricia…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
It’s not a huge program, though.
Minister Sukkar:
…in addition to everything else that the Federal Government is doing.
Patricia Karvelas:
Sure, it’s not a huge program though. It’s not. In the amount of money you spend on things, it’s not a huge program. That is a fact. It is a small program.
Minister Sukkar:
Patricia, the additional $90 million that we put in place under the Safer Places program is really important funding and I don’t really like hearing it being dismissed in the way that you’ve just flippantly done so.
Patricia Karvelas:
Well I have flippantly because I’ve looked at budgets, as you know, for 20 years – and I’m quite proud of that. $90 million is pretty small‑fry, I’m asking you if you will spend more?
Minister Sukkar:
Well, Patricia you were arguing not long ago that $1.3 billion was more than $1.6 so I’m not sure I can agree with some of the numbers that you’ve been outlining in this interview.
Patricia Karvelas:
Well I’m pretty good at counting. $90 million, you’re telling me that it’s a huge amount of money?
Minister Sukkar:
I don’t want to get into a tit for tat with you, Patricia. I’m calling you out because the $90 million program is making a real difference and the point I made to you is that there’s no policy like this or no program – and certainly domestic violence and the way in which governments collectively address domestic violence – there’s no way where we say ‘million accomplished, job done’ and move on. We look at the programs that we’ve put in place, we see how they’re performing, we see how other aspects of government policy – again, both at a state and territory and at a Commonwealth level – are having a benefit on that particular problem and we go from there. To flippantly dismiss a program like that I think is not fair and I don’t think does justice to the various groups who will be delivering and are delivering under those programs. We’re very focussed on it, we’re very focussed on – as I said –everybody on the housing spectrum. From first home buyers at record levels for nearly fifteen years, to renters, to people in social and affordable housing through the National Housing Finance Investment Corporation and the additional investments we’re making through the National Housing and Homelessness Agreement. We are doing more for all of those groups on the housing spectrum, they all effect each other, there’s no way in which you can credibly try to assist in the housing markets around our country with one area and not the other. That’s why we’ve got this holistic approach and we’re very proud of it but the challenges are huge, Patricia. The challenges are massive and they’ll continue.
Patricia Karvelas:
Yes they are huge. Just two quick ones on other issues which aren’t primarily yours but I think are really important. One is the Deputy PM today announced that domestic airlines effected by Covid‑19 are going to get this $750 per employee, per week, wage subsidy. It sounds like JobKeeper, it’s not called that, but it’s just for the domestic airlines. Why do they get a job assistance scheme but other industries don’t?
Minister Sukkar:
I think what you’ve seen with the support that we’ve put in place post JobKeeper – whether its specific support for Victoria, specific support for New South Wales and this announcement today – we need to target the support to the areas with the most acute need. Putting in place support, for example the $750 payments, we know which industries are going to call on that significantly in New South Wales and in other places, will be hospitality. So we tailor the programs to assist the economy broadly and in some instances, effected industries. I don’t think anyone would argue that the aviation industry has not one of the most, if not the most, hardest hit. It is crucial that we continue to support them so I think that Australians would welcome the announcement. The aviation industry is an industry that will be so crucially important for us on the other side of the pandemic, not just from an economic point of view but much more broadly, and we need to continue to do that and I think that it’s very important support.
Patricia Karvelas:
Just a final question about the situation we’re seeing in South East Queensland. Do you think ATAGI should be re‑looking at its advice suggesting AstraZeneca for younger people in that area too? They’ve obviously done that with Sydney because the risk has changed but is the risk also changing in Queensland?
Minister Sukkar:
Look, Patricia, I’m not close enough to the situation in South East Queensland and nor would I seek to give ATAGI any gratuitous advice. I think what you’ve seen from the Government has been an approach where we take into account and obviously really closely listen to and take advice from ATAGI. I have no doubt that they’ll be watching these evolving situations very closely and in doing so, we’ve seen what those sort of decisions have been in the past and they’re in the best position to make those sorts of calls into the future. So again, Patricia, I’m not close enough to the ground to know what that risk‑reward ratio is but I’m sure ATAGI is keeping a very close eye on it.
Patricia Karvelas:
Fair enough. Michael Sukkar, thanks for joining me.
Minister Sukkar:
Thanks Patricia.