EPSTEIN:
So a $2.4 billion health package yesterday, more than $15 billion today. The surplus is probably gone. The biggest single item from the Federal Government appears to be almost $7 billion for small and medium-sized businesses to get some sort of tax holiday, working through the PAYG tax system. Michael Sukkar is the Assistant Treasurer, he's helping the Treasurer and the Prime Minister to try and stop a recession. Thanks for joining us.
SUKKAR:
Great to be with you, Raf, thanks very much.
EPSTEIN:
25 grand. If I'm running an IT company, a building business, that can get soaked up pretty quickly if my workforce isn't at home. How did you come up with the 25 grand figure?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, I mean, really what the principles that have been outlined by the Prime Minister in all of what this package does is to try and assist particularly small businesses through this challenging immediate period. Now, payments of up to $25,000 to nearly 700,000 businesses which covers off 7.8 million employees, we think is a proportionate response. No doubt, there will be some businesses, Raf, where $25,000 does get soaked up pretty quickly, but there will also be many, many smaller businesses where that will help them do really what we're trying to get them to do, and that is to retain their staff through this difficult time.
EPSTEIN:
If I'm employing eight people and they're away for a month and I've got no revenue, it's kind of gone pretty fast, isn't it?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, small-business owners that, I've spoken to even just this morning, some of whom I've been texting with who have obviously read the headlines are very encouraged and very grateful for the decisive action of the government. $25,000 isn't chump change, Raf. Of course, any small business I'm sure would love it to be more but $25,000 is pretty unprecedented in the scale of what Australian Governments have done in the past. We think it’s proportionate, we think it's targeted. We think it achieves the objective which is to help particularly smaller businesses, keep their employees in a job.
EPSTEIN:
Sure. Couldn't you go up?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, we think this package is proportionate. I don't think anybody today is going to accuse the government of having scrimped on what is pretty decisive action to a serious health issue
EPSTEIN:
I'm just curious if the government is saying, "Yes, we'll spend more if we need to stave off a recession." Is that the basic position? You're willing to spend more if you need to?
SUKKAR:
The Prime Minister has said, as recently as this morning, that, again, we think this is proportionate. We think it will achieve its objectives but, of course, this is moving pretty quickly, Raf, and the government doesn't rule anything out as far as ensuring we achieve the objectives I said which is to keep businesses afloat, to keep people in jobs because we know once we get on top of the health issue which has significant economic ramifications, the economy, we think, is in good shape and will bounce back strongly, so this is targeted relief in the short-term.
EPSTEIN:
I wanted to ask about casual workers. Two-thirds of the people who work in cafes, restaurants, hotels, they get no paid sick leave according to the ABS. They're also the people who deal with the public the most. If they're asked to self-isolate, they won't get paid. There's nothing in this package for them. Do you think those workers will stay home if they're asked to self-isolate?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, the Prime Minister and the Treasurer will have more to say on the package later today. You know, the things that we've been discussing this morning is not the entirety of the package.
EPSTEIN:
So there might be some joy there for casuals today?
SUKKAR:
Well, what we are doing, we've put together a package that, again, keeps businesses afloat, keeps people in jobs and hopefully keeps those casuals getting, we hope, regular hours. For those who have to self-isolate, fortunately, we haven't had that in a large-scale sense thus far but if it got to that, the government would act.
EPSTEIN:
So there would be something there for casuals?
SUKKAR:
I'm not suggesting that, I'm just saying to look at what we've announced today, Raf. We're not scrimping here. We're throwing lot of firepower at this and I think any response in the future would be consistent with those principles.
EPSTEIN:
I do want to ask you about whether the surplus is still there but, just briefly, you're a Melbourne MP; do you think the Grand Prix should go ahead?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, you know, we have to take the best advice from the medical professionals as we can. I think there's no doubt that at this point in time that that advice is that events like that, can go ahead and can be managed.
EPSTEIN:
Would you go? Like, I don't know if you're going but would you go if I asked you to come with me on Sunday? Would you come to the Grand Prix?
SUKKAR:
Yeah, I would, Raf. I mean, I'd be lying if I said, you wouldn't need to take additional precautions and, of course, you would and we'd encourage all Melburnians to do so and in fact anyone that's visiting our great city to attend the GP but, no, I would go. I would go, Raf, but, you know, again, that's subject to the advice and on this occasion, if that advice changed in relation to mass gatherings then, I think we'd all faithfully adhere to that.
EPSTEIN:
1300 222 774 is the phone number. Michael Sukkar's the Assistant Treasurer. Is the surplus gone? It looks like it. $17 billion. You can't have a surplus, can you?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, one of the things that we've spoken about for many years is just how important it is to get the budget back into a position that means that when a rainy day arrives – and I'd suggest the Coronavirus is that rainy day – that we've got the firepower to put towards it. Now, we delivered the first balanced Budget last year, first balanced budget in 11 years which I think is…interrupted.
EPSTEIN:
It's back in black. It's not back in black anymore.
SUKKAR:
It's given us the fiscal head room to react and respond to this. I suppose, Raf, without, giving you the politician's answer, our focus right now is on keeping small businesses afloat, keeping people …interrupted.
EPSTEIN:
No, I understand that but…interrupted.
SUKKAR:
Keeping people in jobs.
EPSTEIN:
The whole back in black boast and the hounding of Labor over their financial response to the GFC…interrupted.
SUKKAR:
It's not a boast, Raf, we delivered the first budget surplus in 11 years. It was painstaking to get to that point. Now, again, imagine if we had have done what Labor has been suggesting for all these years which is to splash money around?
EPSTEIN:
So you're not feeling silly at all for attacking Labor over their response during the GFC now that you've got the same problem?
SUKKAR:
No. Raf, I feel extraordinarily vindicated for the position we've adopted in that a balanced budget last year, the work that it has taken to get our books back into the shape, they are the reason we now have the fiscal head room to respond in a really strong way to a crisis like Coronavirus. Had we done what Labor had been suggesting to us for all these years, which is to continually continue with large deficits, I think it's pretty self-evident to all of your listeners, Raf, that we'd be in a much worse position.
EPSTEIN:
And no regrets for calling it a surplus when it's not a surplus?
SUKKAR:
Well, Raf, we delivered a balanced budget last year. At the end of the day, you announce surpluses as forecasts for the year ahead. I don't think anyone foresaw Coronavirus and I suppose my message to your listeners today is we're not focused on being able to boast about any particular budget outcome. What I want to boast about is that we are keeping small businesses afloat, people in jobs and we're doing it in a highly targeted way and an effective way and in a way that means those businesses get through this tough period and come out the other side, which we know they will, as soon as we get on top of the health issue they can come out the other side bigger, stronger and better.
EPSTEIN:
Michael Sukkar's the Assistant Treasurer. Thanks for your time.
SUKKAR: Thanks so much, Raf.