KIERAN GILBERT:
Australians lost a combined $2.7 billion to scams last year. That's down from 3.15 billion in 2022. The report from the ACCC showed more than 600,000 reports being made, as the dollar figure declined for the first time in 7 years. Joining me is the Assistant Treasurer, Stephen Jones. Some improvement, but, wow, that is a massive amount lost to scams.
STEPHEN JONES:
Obviously delighted that the losses have come down, they were doubling every year. For $2.7 billion, I mean, every one of those dollars is a personal crisis. A dollar that couldn't afford to have been lost and somebody who’s done all their dough.
GILBERT:
Is there any way that those individuals get the dollars back or just a loss?
JONES:
No. At the moment, no, for the vast majority of that loss, it's gone and it pretty quickly leaves the country, which motivates me to want to double down on the program we've got in place. Phase one of our anti‑scam agenda already delivered. National Anti‑Scam Centre, pulling down fake investment sites and filtering a lot more of the SMS messages and calls. But phase 2 is the codes of practice that puts higher obligations on banks, on social media companies, on telecommunications companies, and triggers for compensation if they don't meet their standards. I'm hoping that when we roll these things out, we'll be able to bring those losses down significantly, because –
GILBERT:
Just on the code of practice you're talking about, is that for the banks themselves? So, to stop someone being caught up in it, to intervene, is that what you're saying?
JONES:
Basically what I want to do is raise the standard, put more protections in place. So, for banks, social media platforms, telcos –
GILBERT:
The alarm goes off for the bank, saying, look, this person's being dudded here, and then intervene at that point.
JONES:
Well, for the banks, what are some examples of things that we want banks to do? Confirmation of payee. That's where when you type the number in, you get the name of the account holder that flashes up when you're paying a bill online. So, you know that the account number is going – the money is going to –
GILBERT:
Some banks do that already.
JONES:
Some do, but not all. So, we want to have that rolled out all across the banking system. Having rapid report and respond. If you think you've been scammed, being able to call your bank, have them pick the phone up, rapidly respond, and not having a message saying, "I'm sorry, call us back on Monday, because it's 5 o’clock on Friday and we don't take calls after that". So, having rapid report and respond and having anti‑scam measures in place for the banks. Social media platforms is becoming the favoured place for scammers to promote their criminal enterprise. So, fake investment sites, social media platforms are being used to promulgate those.
GILBERT:
And is this, you know, you mentioned that a couple of times, the fake investment sites, is that the main way people are getting dudded?
JONES:
It's huge. Absolutely. Half the losses, Kieran, are investment scams. So, of that 2.7 billion, well over close to 1.3 billion, is in investment scams. And the biggest group who has lost the most in that would be people over the age of 65. So, that's a clear target, a clear priority for us to look at.
GILBERT:
Well, clearly that's what the crooks are looking at. So, people over 65 are being seen as the weak spot. So, if our viewers are watching today, what, and are wondering what do they keep an eye on? What are the alarm bells that should ring? Is it text messages, phone calls?
JONES:
Don't press those bloody links on your text messages or your emails. Don't respond to cold calling around investment products. If something looks too good to be true, then it almost certainly is. Always seek advice from a reliable source. Facebook's great for lots of things, but it's not the place I'd go to for investment advice, and neither is Instagram. And, you know, if you see a celebrity promoting something, beware, because too often now these are celebrities who are having their voices spoofed and their images spoofed and these are fake investment products being published on social media platforms.
GILBERT:
So, beware texts, phone calls, social media, any of those links, just double, triple check.
JONES:
Stay away from it. Stay away from it.
GILBERT:
Don't click links if you don't know 100 per cent where it's from.
JONES:
100 per cent.
GILBERT:
On another matter, we've seen the ACTU, I should say the peak union body, Sally McManus is calling for a 9 per cent pay rise for feminised industries like childcare. Does the government support that push?
JONES:
We support a better deal for women workers and it's why one of our first acts when we were reforming our workplace relations laws, 2 things having equal pay an objective of the workplace relations laws, but also making it easier for people to bargain in those feminised industries. So, 2 significant changes. And we also backed in aged care workers, largely feminised work.
GILBERT:
But at the moment, with inflation proving sticky, is it the time for – I'm not saying you begrudge a childcare worker getting paid barely anything, but it's a difficult balancing act, isn't it?
JONES:
And we want to get it right because want to attract workers to these industries, but of course we're mindful of inflation. So, I respect Sally and the ACTU putting a figure out there and making their target and their claim known. But we'll work through the processes that we've set out and ensure that we can get a right outcome balancing all those issues, budgetary issues, inflationary issues and the need for people in those industries to get fairly remunerated.
GILBERT:
Just finally, Angus Taylor was on the programme earlier. He says that Jim Chalmers needs to deliver not just a windfall surplus in 2 weeks, but a structural surplus to start putting proper downward pressure on inflation. Will Jim Chalmers do that?
JONES:
Angus Taylor is setting tests for the government that they never met themselves. They promised surpluses for 9 years and never delivered one. They saw wages go backwards, spending going up; the 2 biggest budget deficits on record.
GILBERT:
The rates have gone up 12 times and obviously you want to see that –
JONES:
And inflation is coming back under control. So –
GILBERT:
So, you're relaxed about –
JONES:
We're not relaxed, we're never relaxed. But we are putting in place the sorts of disciplinary budgets which are ensuring that inflation pressures are coming off. Good thing, job not done. What's Angus Taylor's alternative plan? He'll have his opportunity Thursday week to set that out. What's he going to cut? What's his positive economic policy for the country? You'll see the Prime Minister and the Treasurer out over the next few weeks talking about a Future Made in Australia. Australia being a country that makes things again, reskilling our workforce, extending the policies that we've put in place and rebuilding our energy system. All absolutely essential things that they never did on their watch. It's core to our economic plan.
GILBERT:
Stephen Jones, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.
JONES:
Great to be with you.