LEON COMPTON:
Tuning in. Scams getting more complex. I mean, we've all been targeted in a scam. The question is if you've fallen for one. There's so much more pressure now to receive information through smartphones, through email and store and share more of that information through smartphones and your local computer. It is becoming hard to discern what's real and what's not. I think it's interesting that in the figures, half of the people that fell for scams in Tasmania recently have been aged 65 or older.So what, if anything, can the National Anti‑Scam Centre do to help? Stephen Jones is the Assistant Federal Treasurer. Minister, good morning to you.
STEPHEN JONES:
Good to be with you, Leon.
COMPTON:
And thank you for coming in. So, specifically, what is the National Anti‑Scam Centre going to do to reduce scams?
JONES:
It's a part of the government's action ‑ three limbs to our action. The first setting up a specialist centre which, for the first time, will be providing support to consumers and have within it specialist fusion cells which are going after the criminals, the scammers, who are involved in the sorts of things that your listeners have been talking about.
COMPTON:
Sorry, a fusion cell?
JONES:
Yeah, a good question.
COMPTON:
What is it?
JONES:
Think of it as a hit squad. We're going to be bringing in expertise from law enforcement, from the financial services industry, from social media, and the regulators themselves. Get their expertise, bringing it together and go after a particular species of scam, whether it's an investment scam, whether it's a ‑ an invoice interception scam, a romance scam; putting together a comprehensive strategy, going after it and ensuring that we can bring down the level of exposure from Australians by these ‑ from these criminal operations.
COMPTON:
Is this a new agency or will this have the power of agencies in states and territories? What is it? I mean, is it going to prosecute anybody?
JONES:
It only works if we have everything working together. One of the things that consumers tell us at the moment is that there's no one door, there's no specialist agency helping them with this. So, the National Anti‑Scam Centre sits within the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. This is the consumer watchdog.
It will be drawing resources from across state and federal government, and the private sector, importantly. Does it have a prosecutorial role? That's the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission's job, within which it sits, or it'll be referred off to one of the police or DPP agencies.
But its job, principally, is to stop the scams at source and to ensure that we can move quickly. So, if somebody is involved in a scam which involves money being transferred from a bank, the most important thing we can do is ensure that we have the information going to the telecommunications companies and the banks almost in real‑time so that that type of scam activity doesn't infect other people as well. So getting red flags at banks, getting telecommunications, and social media platforms working at one and immediately is a critical part of this strategy.
COMPTON:
You're on Mornings around Tasmania. My guest this morning, the voice you can hear, Stephen Jones, Assistant Federal Treasurer. It's his responsibility to deliver the National Anti‑Scam Centre starting next week. If you'd like to call and talk to him, tell him a story, share your experience, 1300 222 936 is the number. 1300 222 936. Call me. Catherine was on the phone as you were coming into the building. Minister, here's a little of what she had to say:
CALLER:
A friend of mine was scammed out of $100,000 on a phone scam and so ‑ and the bank ‑ and she went ‑ she went immediately to the bank and she wasn't able to get the money back. So, I wrote to the Minister. I wrote an article about it, and I've put up a petition in the Federal Parliament to ask for banks to be mandated to provide restitution to anybody who has been scammed.
COMPTON:
Mm, it's an interesting one, notwithstanding her friend's personal responsibility to not fall for a scam that requires [indistinct] move nine lots of $9,000 and then some ‑ or rather 11, almost near 11 lots of $9,000 and then some. Should the banks compensate customers where the money's come out of their accounts?
JONES:
Short story: if they've done the wrong thing, yeah. The problem we have at the moment, Leon, is that there's no clear code of practice or set of laws or regulations which set out what banks are obliged to do, and I intend to change that. So new codes of practice will be developed this year which impose new tough obligations which raise the bar on the obligations for banks, other operators in the financial services sector, telecommunications companies, and social media platforms. Raise the bar on what they're responsible to do, and if they don't meet that obligation ‑ for example, if somebody has notified the bank immediately that they have become aware of something and before money is transferred out of their account, the bank doesn't act on it, yeah, that'd be a situation where the bank should be liable, yes.
COMPTON:
But a listener says it's a bit rich, it's a bit rich for somebody who is being scammed and withdrawing their money, to expect the bank to then give them that money back. I mean, do you ‑ is there something in that sentiment?
JONES:
Yeah, there is. I want to raise a high bar, set a high standard which puts obligations on banks but at the same time I want to ensure that if they've met that obligation they're not then ‑ that if you like is a safe harbour. I don't want to have a situation where, effectively, you've created a victimless crime because, well, if the bank's always going to refund you, the criminal gangs will think, "Oh well, you know, the bank can pay, we can rip off the vulnerable, the elderly, people with disabilities, the people who are busy and susceptible. We can rip them off. The bank will always refund them, no loser here." I don't want to create that sort of honey pot which makes the problem worse, not better.
COMPTON:
You're on Mornings around Tasmania. Michael is in Tranmere. Michael, good morning to you.
CALLER:
G'day, mate.
COMPTON:
And you've got the shadow ‑ or, rather, the Assistant Federal Treasurer, Stephen Jones with you this morning as well. Michael, what happened to you?
CALLER:
What happened was I was just doing, trying to sell a barbecue on Facebook Marketplace and just, you know, 40, 50 bucks, and someone said, "Can you hold it for me", and then he tried to ‑ get me to pay by PayID, which is the normal process these days. And then he come back and said, "Oh, I'm in ‑ I'm on business, I have business PayID and you ‑ I have to pay a minimum of $500 to you and you need to register for a business PayID." And he started this process and I said ‑ in the end, I decided I wasn't going to go through and pay him $500. He then requested that I pay him $500 first and then he'd pay me, you know, $550 back. And that was a scam. I've seen it a few times since. I didn't go through with it.
COMPTON:
How convincing was it, Michael?
CALLER:
It was reasonably convincing 'cause Pay ID's a normal thing. But then I, I suppose, used Dr Google and googled this thing and it said that was a scam. So, you know, I decided to not go ahead. And then I then checked his profile on Facebook and it said he was from Germany. Whether that was a true account I don't know but –
COMPTON:
But you managed to avoid it. Michael, listen, I'll take your example, we'll put it to the Assistant Federal Treasurer. You heard Michael's story, Stephen Jones. What, if anything, can you do to regulate the biggest technology players in the world and the operators of Facebook?
JONES:
They've got to be a part of it. The social media platforms have got to be a part of the obligations that we set across the economy. The good thing about, you know, places like Facebook Marketplace, is that they've bought the garage sale online; you know, it's now available to a whole heap more people. The bad thing about it is that it does create the sort of risk for these ‑ a paradise for the scammers to come online.
COMPTON:
What sort of stories are you hearing? I mean, I regard Facebook Marketplace as, you know ‑ I mean, the prospect of spending your weekend, as Michael had to do, dealing with something like that is, you know, a bridge too far for many people. Can you clean it up? Can you actually set yourself the goal of cleaning it up?
JONES:
I think we can. I think we can put obligations on Facebook and the other social media platforms to ensure they create a safe environment. If they know that they've got scammers online they can ‑ if they can market to me my favourite brand of sneakers, then they can use those algorithms for the ‑ for the force of good as well and target the criminal operations who are involved in this stuff. Some of it's low‑level. Some of it's organised crime. We need strategies which deal with all of it.
Michael did the right thing and pulled out. The thing that breaks my heart is lots of people don't. They get sucked in and sucked in and sucked in. So one of the things that I'm ‑ I'm in Hobart today running anti‑scam forums with Julie Collins and Senator Carol Brown and one of the purposes of those is to raise community awareness of things that we can do to protect ourselves.
So, there'll be law change. There'll be new regulatory bodies and new enforcement bodies set up through the National Anti‑Scam Centre. But education's also a part of it. Your program today is a part of that, I've got to say, Leon.
COMPTON:
Let's go to Ken in Lauderdale because the numbers ‑ and our next guest, Frank in Devonport. Frank, if you can hold on the line. Big money by any measure. Ken, in Lauderdale, good morning to you.
CALLER:
Good morning, guys. I run a state‑wide business and we got scammed for 70K a few months ago through PayPal transactions where somehow they targeted one of our accounts, it was actually a GST account, and they got the numbers. Which is not advertised anywhere. They then ‑ with PayPal you can select either credit card or bank account. So, they selected a bank account; they knew the number. So, PayPal then pings across 2 cents, 10 cents and then you've got to vertify that, so that you can then get access to the account. And somehow they saw that feed out of that account, vertified it, and within half a day, we'd lost 70 grand.
COMPTON:
Really.
CALLER:
Luckily, the bank was able to get it back, and we've got cyber insurance, so it was able to cover it. But it's as simple as that. That someone would be so easily be able to ‑ I cannot believe that as long as you can see an account and someone could obviously see that they put 2 cents, 10 cents, vertified it, and all of a sudden it's open slather. And we actually rang the bank when we first saw it happen. We actually saw it go in and thought, "Oh, we better let them know". The bank actually stopped deposits but not withdrawals. And ‑ and, anyway, so we ‑ yeah, we were lucky, you know, we were able to get it all back and -
COMPTON:
So, can I ask you a question?
CALLER:
I was going to say, I had a heart attack.
COMPTON:
Yeah, I can imagine you had a heart attack, Ken; that would have been a bad day. Ken, what is the lesson out of that for next time? So what have you learnt from that as a business owner that you could have done differently?
CALLER:
Well, we've just ‑ we've got to be more vigilant. Definitely more vigilant on all the bank fees and including accounts that we don't really look at. Because it's not a working account, it's one that automatically has money bouncing over to it to pay the BAS. But also just to up your security. And I've ‑ I've since we've got cyber insurance and they've since investigated. We've got police involved. And it's still there, it's still going on. But it could be from anywhere in the world this could have happened.
COMPTON:
Ken, good on you. Really appreciate you sharing your story. Your reflections on hearing that story, Stephen Jones?
JONES:
Thanks, Ken. He was aware and he got it quickly. Moving quickly matters a lot. One of the first things ‑ two things that I say when I do the scams information sessions. Don't click the bloody blue link. That's the number one thing. Don't click the blue link on the SMS or the emails that we get hit with all the time. And, secondly, if you think something has gone wrong, get on to your bank ASAP. Ken's done that and was able to mitigate or prevent the loss. That's what consumers can do and businesses can do.
What I can do is ensure that we are lifting the standards and creating a safer environment all around and that's what my project's all about.
COMPTON:
Frank's in Devonport, good morning, Frank.
CALLER:
Good morning, Leon.
COMPTON:
You almost lost 100 grand, Frank. How did you ‑ how did that story unfold?
CALLER:
Well, I didn't ‑ yeah, I ‑ I'd checked it out very well. It was a group come through on my computer, JFM Group, and they were offering bonds, government taxed bonds, Commonwealth Bank bonds - 9 per cent for 100,000. 8 per cent for another ‑ there's another group and I checked it out and then I went a little bit further and in New Zealand they said, "Fake ANZ Bank's equity JFM Group offering Oceania government bonds." So, they're fake.
But I rang them just for interest sake to see and oh, yeah, you know, they can do all sorts of things. And it come through on the computer and, you know, even Queensland Treasury bonds they were offering, six and ‑ 6.5 per cent for 100,000.
COMPTON:
And so you managed to sniff it out in time, Frank.
CALLER:
I did. But the other thing is, Leon, JFM Group is a ‑ a charitable organisation, is a legitimate company, but they're not involved in any sort of financial arrangements.
COMPTON:
So, somebody has appropriated their branding as well. That's a tough one, Frank, thank you for that, appreciate it. 0438 922 936. Another listener says, "Scam money's almost instantly transferred through a multitude of bank accounts, it's gone off‑shore within minutes, PayID Osko offers" ‑ oh, now there's some spelling errors in there, there's auto correct going on so I'm reluctant to read anything about that. But thank you for the text this morning. Brian says, "I can't open a bank account without providing proof of identity. Why can't the bank provide the identity of a scammer?" asks Brian. Good point. Assistant Federal Treasurer, what's your answer to that?
JONES:
Great question. I think it frustrates us all and we get a call from the bank and they ask us to ID ourselves and we can't ID them. So, a part of the conversation I'm having with the banks at the moment is how they can create ‑ create new processes to ensure consumers have better confidence when they are dealing with their bank remotely.
Can I just say in relation to Frank's stuff and other callers about the speed at which transactions move and, you know, often they move into a crypto currency platform and then out of the country. We're working on all of these links in ‑ within the chain, but one thing I can be pretty confident about: the whole pace of change over the last 15 years is instantaneous transactions and making money move quickly. And it's been great but we're going to have to put some more friction in the process to ensure that there are more checks and balances and slow some things down, particularly with large amounts and out‑of‑character transactions.
COMPTON:
So, if I remember my cheque days well, it used to be five days if it was a non‑branch cheque, and three days if it was from the same bank. We're not going back there I'm assuming?
JONES:
No.
COMPTON:
So, what sort of friction are you talking about?
JONES:
More checks and balances. So, a lot of the things that get raised with me, people say, "Well, I transferred $9,000 into this account. It wasn't me, somebody else did it. I've never transferred money into that amount of ‑ that ‑ that account before. I normally only spend $200 out of this account every week." That's an out‑of‑character transaction. It's obviously odd. And one of the things that we're talking to banks and others about is how they can use their systems and technologies to detect these things and slow some stuff down.
If it just doesn't look right, then a good chance is it's not right. So that's an example about how we're looking at out‑of‑character transactions, certain destination transactions, information sharing. So, I mentioned at the outset one of the processes of the ‑ one of the functions of the National Anti‑Scam Centre is sharing information as soon as we become aware, as soon as a consumer has said, "I've been approached by this, it looks suss", sharing that across all the bank platforms so that they can flag it as well.
COMPTON:
Mm.
JONES:
It's about putting ‑ sharing information quickly but also putting a bit more friction in the system to slow some of these potentially dodgy things down.
COMPTON:
You're on Mornings around Tasmania. Stephen Jones, Assistant Federal Treasurer, is our guest this morning. Apologies to those texts we won't get to. Let's move on to another topic while we have you there. The Reserve Bank is smashing ordinary people at the moment with interest rate rises. Their quest is to combat inflation, Minister. Do you accept that some companies are profiteering at the moment from the perception that inflation means inevitable price rises and so are seeing a chance to make hay?
JONES:
Well, inflation is a problem. It's a problem for households across the economy -
COMPTON:
The question is who's causing it?
JONES:
– there's no doubt about it.
COMPTON:
The question is who's causing it? Households are being targeted by the Reserve Bank. My point is that some companies, do you accept that some companies are profiteering from a perception that it's a good time to just jack up their prices and making hay?
JONES:
If businesses are maintaining their margins and passing the cost of inflation onto their consumers then, yeah, they are a part of the ‑ the spiralling process of inflation. There's no doubt about it.
COMPTON:
Do you accept that there are a number of companies at the moment in Australia that aren't, in fact, experiencing those inflationary pressures and are just seeing a chance to jack up their prices and profiteering?
JONES:
Yeah, I ‑ I accept –
COMPTON:
Do you accept that?
JONES:
I accept that there'll be some companies that are doing that. I'm not going to go as far as to say that every company in the country is doing it. Some of them will be doing it because they're in a strong market position and they can just charge what they like, and consumers have got no choice, they've just got to pay it.
COMPTON:
Do you think that's a significant issue in Australia right now?
JONES:
I think there is an issue. I don't think it's every company in the country. But I think there are some businesses that are no doubt seeing their profit margins either maintained or increased while households and small businesses around the country are being told they're got to tighten their belt and people are right to say, "Well, that's just not fair."
COMPTON:
Well, doesn't it also mean that almost all of the efforts that are being painfully felt by households at the moment won't actually solve the problem it's designed ‑ that interest rate rises are designed to fix, which is curbing inflation?
JONES:
Well, we're ‑ what we're seeing at the moment is that retail sales are starting to drop off. So, there's no doubt that, you know, the very blunt instrument that the independent Reserve Bank is using to dampen demand, it is working. Of course, consumers in some areas have got no choice. They've got to put petrol in their car, they've got to put milk in the fridge and food on the table. So, they're paying more for those inputs. But there is no doubt that across the country demand is slowing. That's what the Reserve Bank is attempting to engineer.
From our part, independent of the Reserve Bank, we're trying to ensure that we can support households in the areas where we can, where we don't make the inflationary situation worse, and that we can deal with some of those underlying supply chain issues, skills shortages, product shortages, etcetera, the energy issues through sound medium‑term policy, doing what we can ‑
COMPTON:
Are you going to reappoint the head of the Reserve? I mean, you talk about the Reserve's at arm's‑length. You've got the head of the Reserve coming up for review. I'm trying to imagine a world in which you would reappoint the man that effectively waited until after a federal election to start lifting interest rates when a lot of the signs were there, and started lifting interest rates having said they wouldn't, in fact, need to go up for at least another year and a half.
JONES:
The government will receive a short list of candidates and the Treasurer will receive a short list of candidates -
COMPTON:
Will our current Reserve's name be on that short list?
JONES:
I'd expect his name will be on the short list. Of course, we'll receive that and the Treasurer and the Cabinet will make a decision over the course of the next month or so. People won't have to wait too much longer to see what government's decision is on that.
COMPTON:
I appreciate you coming in this morning.
JONES:
Good to be with you –