MURRAY JONES:
My special guest this morning, Stephen Jones. He’s the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Finance. He joins me this morning. Stephen, I’ve just admitted to nearly being scammed. What about you? Have you ever been scammed or nearly scammed yourself?
STEPHEN JONES:
There’s been so many times when I’ve received emails and thought, ‘Oh, do I press that link and go through there or not’ and have come very, very close on a number of occasions, which is why I generally start interviews like this one, Murray, by saying, ‘Don’t press those bloody blue links.’
MURRAY JONES:
Yeah.
STEPHEN JONES:
The ones that come through on text messages, don’t do it; that’s how scammers filter you through to a fake website. It looks like a real one, whether it’s Netflix or bank or something, it looks like a real one, but it’s a fake one, and they’ve tricked you to going there by sending you one of those little blue links in your SMSs or emails. So don’t press them. But the good news is we’ve seen a modest decrease in scam losses over the last 12 months. I’m not shouting ‘hooray’, because that could go up again, the scammers change their strategies, but we’re rolling out our program to take the fight back to the scammers, and early days, good news, scam losses are dropping, including in Queensland, where we’ve seen a drop of both the – well, particularly the amount of money that has been lost to scammers, I think, wind the clock back to 2022 about $37–38 million was being lost and that number has come down significantly to around about $21 million, so that’s good news.
MURRAY JONES:
It’s still a lot of money though.
STEPHEN JONES:
But we’re not going to let our guard down. It’s still a hell of a lot of money, yeah, yeah.
MURRAY JONES:
So we’re talking about January to June just this year, here in Queensland, just over $21 million. In the same period last year, it was up at $54 million. So there has been quite a drop. You know, nationwide back in 2022, the losses Australia wide, $3.15 billion. But thankfully there are initiatives that have been put forward. The ACCC established the National Anti‑Scam Centre. We’ve also got from ASIC, basically, you know, an option to bust those fake investment websites, and you know, people that are promoting the fake scams. What are some of the common things? What are the things that we’re seeing? You know, I gave an example, and basically you talked about a carbon copy issue, particularly when it comes to getting texts and clicking on links, but what are some of the biggest issues of concern that continue to rise for Australians at this time?
STEPHEN JONES:
Investment scams account for over half the losses, and they generally originate through somebody receiving an email or getting a message from a – on their social media platform, whether it’s a cryptocurrency investment, which looks too good to be true, whether it’s a fake bond or a fake investment account; those things account for over half the losses. Often they’ll be accompanied by what appears to be an endorsement from a celebrity. Of course the celebrity didn’t give the endorsement, it’s a fake, and people fall into the web and lose their money. So, look, if something looks too good to be true, you can be guaranteed that it is.
MURRAY JONES:
Yep.
STEPHEN JONES:
You know, if somebody’s offering, you know, twice the going rate for a bank bond, or a bond of some sort, or for a fixed term investment, it’s going to be a fake. Nobody’s offering twice what everyone else is offering, nobody’s offering way above the odds. So just scan around, have a look, get some advice, and the last place I’d go to advice is a social media platform.
MURRAY JONES:
Yeah.
STEPHEN JONES:
So go and talk to a professional, a professional financial adviser, or somebody you trust before you start doing your hard‑earned cash on these investment scams.
MURRAY JONES:
And it certainly seems, and it’s something that, I guess, you know, I’ve been talking about quite a bit, you know, when it comes to some of the big tech giants, what they’re allowing on social media, which is leading people directly into these traps is a real concern, and it’s often to do with investment. But you’re hearing incredible things, particularly when it comes to AI, and love scams, people that are actually thinking they’re in a relationship, say, with a Hollywood star, because they ring them. It sounds like the star. They’re actually even doing video calls, and they’re thinking that they’re actually entering in a relationship with a Hollywood star. You know, it’s becoming so clever, and you said that at the beginning of our interview, sure, the numbers are looking like they’re dropping fairly solidly in a lot of areas, but these scammers continue to change things and do things, and they’re getting cleverer all the time as well.
STEPHEN JONES:
Yeah, that’s right. And we think AI is the next big tool which will industrialise the scam world, and the criminals are already on to it, so we need to improve our defences. Of course consumers need to beware, you know, don’t give your information out online – out over the phone to a stranger or online; don’t – particularly for an unsolicited call, just don’t give your information out to somebody who’s, you know, made a call that you didn’t arrange; an unsolicited call. Don’t press those bloody blue links, and don’t let somebody remote access into your computer. These are all common tricks that scammers are currently using. Next gen will go to AI and very sophisticated stuff. You’ve mentioned the romance scams, employment scams are on the rise as well. This is one where you get a message saying, ‘Earn thousands of dollars for working from home, do it all online’. That will invariably require you to make a small upfront payment for some training or to establish account or something like this. You make the payment; the training never arrives, and the job was never real. So they’re on the rise as well. But can I spend a few moments talking to you about what we’re going to do next, Murray, to protect Australians from this?
MURRAY JONES:
And look, you know, I understand that certainly there’s a lot of things we can do here in Australia. Sometimes in the international sphere, it makes it very, very difficult. But I believe that there’s actually Phase 2 of the Anti‑Scam Agenda introducing new mandatory industry codes, just part of the initiative.
STEPHEN JONES:
Yeah, absolutely right. Some people say to me, ‘Oh, why don’t we just get the cops to go out and arrest these – kick down the doors, arrest them, and you know, bring them to a court and throw them in jail’ and, you know, there is a big role for policing in all of this.
MURRAY JONES:
Sure.
STEPHEN JONES:
But unfortunately so often these guys are operating in sophisticated criminal syndicates offshore, in countries where traditional law enforcement can’t reach. So different strategy is needed, and that’s what we’ve put together, based on some of the best advice and looking at what’s working and not working around the world. So we’ll start later on this year with new Codes of Practice, entrenched in the law. There will be legal obligations on banks and telecommunications companies and social media platforms. Why them? Because the scams are coming to you over a social media platform, an email or a phone call or an SMS, and the money, the pot of money or the wallet at the end of it is your bank. So we’ve got to lift the protections in all of those areas. But we won’t stop there, by the way, but ensuring that they are doing more to keep their customers’ information and money safe. So that will be the next round of action, and once we’ve locked that down, we’ll move to other areas as well. But of course if these bodies don’t do the right thing, like if, you know, social media platforms have been told that they’ve got a bogus ad on their site or an investment scam or a puppy scam or a romance scam, and they don’t take it down, there’ll be fines and penalties applied. Same with the banks, if they’ve been told, ‘This is a mule account being used for criminal activity’ and they don’t lock access to it, then, you know, fines and penalties, particularly if somebody loses money, compensation can flow, and telecommunications companies as well, if they’ve been told ‘these are scam numbers’, or ‘set up a new regime for the way SMSs are sent out in this country’, and they’re not complying with it, fines, penalties, compensation can flow.
MURRAY JONES:
Yep. And I think it’s got to the point where these are the types of steps we need to take. But as we’ve kind of covered in our discussion, prevention is better than cure.
STEPHEN JONES:
Yeah.
MURRAY JONES:
So you just stay vigilant yourself, but it’s good to see that there’s an overarching policy framework which means that certainly companies based here in Australia and businesses, or even scammers here in Australia, are going to find it more and more difficult. Great to talk to you this morning. We’ve had a fulsome discussion. You’ve probably got a few things to do down there on the South Coast of New South Wales, so I’ll let you go this morning.
Stephen Jones. He’s the Minister for Finance, Assistant Treasurer. Have a great day and thank you so much for your time. Cheers.
STEPHEN JONES:
Always good to talk, Murray.