NICK BRYANT:
So, with the cost of living biting and a national election looming, the federal government is threatening to ban debit card surcharges from the start of 2026, a plan which has been slammed on the other side of politics. Stephen Jones is the Assistant Treasurer. Stephen, welcome back to Radio National Drive.
STEPHEN JONES:
Good to be with you, Nick.
BRYANT:
The RBA reckons Australians are losing about a billion dollars a year to surcharges. Take me through what the government is proposing and what it would look like in practice?
JONES:
Well, this is understandably in response to consumers saying, ‘why am I having to pay money to access my own money to pay for a cup of coffee or a grocery – a basket?’ That’s a pretty reasonable concern by Australians. The plan, we want to ensure that we remove those surcharges, but we want to do it in a way that doesn’t lump the cost of that on small businesses, a simple ban on its own would mean that small businesses are picking up the tab. So, we’ve got to go upstream to look at that whole network of charges that is leading or ending in a small business and their customers. So, it’s the banks, it’s the card service providers, Visa, Mastercard, EFTPOS, but it’s also the payment systems operators. So, we’ve got to look at all of that, untangle it, work out what a reasonable cost for providing those services is, and ensuring that Australians aren’t being slugged by these unreasonable surcharges just to access their own money.
BRYANT:
This would only apply to debit cards, but a lot of people use their credit cards to pay for things. Why not have those surcharges go as well?
JONES:
Good point. Around about 90 per cent of the exchanges that we’re talking about are done on a debit card, particularly for younger Australians who are more likely not to have a credit card. They might have a buy now, pay later account and a debit card, but more and more people are using debit cards for their day‑to‑day retail transactions. So, the case is cut and dried in this area. Credit products are a little bit different and are treated differently, always have been. So, the biggest part of the big problem is the debit cards, where people are being slugged a surcharge to use their own money, many times in instances where they can’t get the cash out or they can’t use it.
BRYANT:
Now, the Head of the Commonwealth Bank basically said during parliamentary proceedings or in this parliamentary committee, that this issue was being infused with populist politics, that the bank’s payment operations are actually making a loss. So, is this performative politics? Is this a bit of bank‑bashing?
JONES:
Absolutely not. And as I said in response to your earlier question, it’s not just the banks, it’s the card providers, the system providers such as Visa, Mastercard, EFTPOS, they’ve got charges in the system. It’s the payment network systems who run the rails around which our payments run throughout the country. Most of them not known to everyday consumers, but they’ve got charges in the system as well. So, it’s about untangling all of that. We’ve got the Reserve Bank looking at what it actually costs to run those rails, to run those charge systems, and what is being passed on to the consumer and where the excessive charging is. Job of work between now and Christmas. We’ll get the results of that, we’ll move on that early in the year – new year – and giving the whole system clear signal from the 1 January 2026. If they haven’t moved on it, we will.
BRYANT:
Now, the Opposition has been critical of your proposals. Here’s what the Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton, had to say today.
[Excerpt]
PETER DUTTON:
This is actually a plan for a plan. I mean, this Prime Minister always promises but never delivers. And we’re very happy to look at anything the government’s going to propose. It’s not an announcement, it’s just that they’re looking at it and it could come in, in 2026. Australian families need help now from this government. And instead of making good decisions, the government’s made bad decisions.
[End of excerpt]
BRYANT:
I mean, he’s got a point, hasn’t he? This is a plan for a plan. It’s what Donald Trump had in that debate, a concept for a plan.
JONES:
Peter Dutton’s got no plan for the economy and no economic policies. He had 9 years to do something about this. It wasn’t a priority for him then. It wasn’t a priority for any of the 3 years when he had my job. It wasn’t a priority for any of the 9 years when he sat around the cabinet table. And now he’s criticising the government for wanting to do something which needs to be done. We’ve got a clear process for dealing with it. It’s not populist; it’s about ensuring we do the right thing, which is about ensuring we take all the evidence. We ensure that we don’t have any unintended consequences, such as having small business pick up the costs for a ban on surcharging. So, we’ll do it in the right way. We’d expect Peter Dutton to support it because it’s in the interests of consumers. But we remember that he’s voted against every single measure that we’ve put in place to provide cost‑of‑living relief for Australians. Whether it’s energy bill relief, whether it’s provisions which enable workers to get better pay rises, whether it’s medicines relief. In every opportunity Peter Dutton has had to vote in favour of cost‑of‑living relief for Australians, he’s done the opposite.
BRYANT:
If you just join me here on Radio National Drive, I’m speaking with the Assistant Treasurer, Stephen Jones, about the government’s promise to crack down on debit card surcharges. There is a process underway. You’re waiting for the Reserve Bank to finish its review into retail payments regulation. They’ve been waiting for you to pass legislation to provide them with more powers, which is now stuck in parliament. You’re saying this change won’t happen until 2026. People are hurting now. Why can’t this be expedited?
JONES:
Well, it can be expedited if the Opposition votes for the bill, which is before the Senate right now. That’s available for them to do that. They’ve said they’ll oppose it. They can vote in favour of the bill, the payment systems reform bill, which is in the Senate now, and that would give the government the additional powers. At the moment, those powers sit solely with the Reserve Bank of Australia. We’ve given a pretty good indication about what we’ll do as a government. Of course, the bloke who wants to be the alternative Prime Minister for Australia could announce his policy, but he hasn’t.
BRYANT:
And let’s talk about the man who is the Prime Minister at the moment. There has been a lot of talk today about the PM’s new luxury ocean view home he’s bought on the Central Coast in NSW. Isn’t this a bit tone‑deaf at the time of a cost‑of‑living crisis ahead of what will surely be a cost‑of‑living election and in the middle of the housing crisis? The optics of this just aren’t very good.
JONES:
Look, the PM and his fiancée Jodie are planning to get married next year. They wanted to buy a place in the area where Jodie grew up and 3 generations of her family live, and I think they’re entitled to do so. The housing that we’re focused on is our housing program, our plan to build new homes to ensure that we have a roof over the head of every Australian. We’ve got legislation before the parliament which is being blocked by the Coalition and the Greens. They should get out of the way and enable that to occur so we can help everyday Australians, through our Help to Buy Scheme, get access to the housing market. This is the housing issue that everyday Australians are focused on and it’s the focus of our government.
BRYANT:
Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones, thank you for joining me on Radio National Drive.
JONES:
Good to be with you.