Patricia Karvelas:
As we mentioned at the top of the show, Assistant Treasurer, Stephen Jones, has announced his retirement from politics at the federal election. The decision marks the end of a 15‑year political career and makes Jones the fourth minister to depart during this term, following Linda Burney, Brendan O’Connor, and Bill Shorten. I spoke to him a short time ago. Stephen Jones, welcome to the program.
Stephen Jones:
Great to be back with you.
Karvelas:
The Prime Minister gave you summer to reconsider. Why did you decide to throw the towel in?
Jones:
Look, 15 years, 5 elections, I’ve made a decision with my family that it’s time for me to start a new chapter and for me to hand the baton on to somebody else. I’m confident the party will choose a great candidate, but I want to move on to the next phase of my life, happy that I’ve made a solid contribution to public life and to my electorate.
Karvelas:
Would you like to see a woman be the candidate that takes over after you leave?
Jones:
Look, I’m not going to pre‑empt what the party may do. I want to pay respect to members and the party organisation. I will say that the party and the Prime Minister in particular have made great efforts to ensure that we exceed equal representation in our Caucus and our Cabinet, and I’d be surprised if we didn’t continue to do that.
Karvelas:
Okay. There is a name being thrown around, Keely O’Brien, who’s a former staffer, I think, to Julia Gillard and also Jenny Macklin. Is she someone you think would be appropriate to be the candidate?
Jones:
I’m just not – I’m not going to get into –
Karvelas:
Give me some sense.
Jones:
Mate, I’m not even going to get into it, I’m sorry, that would be incredibly unfair to any individual or individuals, and I’ve said that to everybody who’s asked me this and related questions. Not today. Give us a couple of days, and I might have a view on it, but today I’m paying respect to the people who’ve supported me over 15 years, and that’s the people who sent me here to Canberra. I’ve got a few more months left in me between now and the election, and I’ll continue to serve as a Minister and a local MP between now and then, and those other things will go through the processes that they go through. You’ve been around a long time, mate, you know exactly how that works.
Karvelas:
Thanks for rubbing it in. Look, there’s been a few ministers that have left the government in recent times. Some might see it as a lack of confidence in the government’s re‑election. Is that part of your thinking?
Jones:
No, absolutely not. I’m confident that the Prime Minister will lead Labor to a victory in an election later this year. If you look at the Ministers who stepped down, all of them – how can I put this as kindly as possible – we’re not in the first semester of our lives, we’ve all served in the federal parliament or the state parliament for well over a decade, in my case 15 years, in Brendan’s case, I think, in excess of 20 years, and in my good mate Linda Burney’s case, combined around about 20, 25 years. So a lot of service there. It’s quite natural that people make a decision around about that time, as I have, each for our own reason. For me, I want to do something different with my life. I have loved what I’ve done as an MP and a minister, it’s been the great honour of my life, but I’ve always said I don’t want it to be the last thing I do, I’d like to do some other things with my life, and now’s my time to do that.
Karvelas:
Okay. Do you think being a politician has become more brutal than ever?
Jones:
Look, I think it is. You might recall I came in in 2010, I they refer to it as ‘the troubles’, it was a tough time for me and my party in that term of government. We did some great things, but you know, it’s not giving anything away that there was a fair bit of turmoil back then. We’ve learnt from that and moved on. I’d say it is tougher. There’s a lot more scrutiny, I think, it’s a great regret to me that as traditional media has declined, unfiltered opinion‑based, not fact‑checked social media has filled a space, and anyone can say anything about anyone, and if they say it often enough it’s treated as truth. I think that’s incredibly dangerous for democracy, and I can tell you as a participant it doesn’t make the job easier in making good policy. But that’s not the reason, mate. For 15 years I’ve served and given it my all. I think it’s time for somebody else to take up the baton.
Karvelas:
You are a lefty in the Labor Caucus. I want to ask you this: there’s a backlash to so‑called ‘woke politics’ at the moment. You’ve spoken out about trans issues in the past. Are you concerned by what you’re seeing?
Jones:
Look, I’m concerned if the pathway to the Lodge and government is about dividing Australians on issues which I don’t think are central to government. And it’s about 3 years ago today I gave a speech, very heartfelt speech which reflected on the passing of my nephew who took his own life, and other members of my family. And the essence of that speech was what we say in this joint matters, and it has a deep and direct impact on people’s lives, particularly young people’s lives and vulnerable people’s lives. So we can’t just shoot our mouths off and think that it doesn’t have a direct impact on people; it does. And I don’t think it’s the role of government to be getting into a whole bunch of these things. I think the economy, our defence, our national security, our financial security is the thing that people send us to parliament for –
Karvelas:
Are you worried that there is a –
Jones:
– not culture wars.
Karvelas:
– there is a backlash to trans people’s rights at the moment? We’re seeing it obviously in the United States, but even in Queensland, there’s been a shift in young people’s access to trans care. Are you worried about that?
Jones:
I worry that the pathway to government and the obsession of some in this place, not the majority, not all, but some, seems to be around culture war issues which aren’t central to everyday Australians’ needs and concerns.
Karvelas:
Yeah, that’s the macro, but at a more personal level, are you worried about these particular individuals?
Jones:
I’m worried about the impact on vulnerable members of our community and young people, and when their lives and identities are weaponised for political purposes; yeah, deeply worried about that. There are far more important things for us to be focusing on as a government and a nation than these imaginary issues which are weaponised for a culture war which makes not one iota of difference to people’s economic wellbeing, which is what we should be focused on.
Karvelas:
Yeah. We got to know each other as you were one of the designers of the ultimate constitutional reform that went to a referendum. What’s your take on Aboriginal people right now in this country and their status? Do you think there is a backlash to Aboriginal people’s rights?
Jones:
I think we’ve got a lot of work to do here. We accept the outcome of the referendum, you know, I was passionately in favour of the change. My view didn’t get up. We accept the outcome of that. That should not be translated as a licence for the majority to double down on oppression, whether it’s verbal or other oppression of First Nations people. The pathway forward is a greater understanding and a greater acceptance.
Karvelas:
But do you think the referendum took us back?
Jones:
I don’t think it took it forward, I don’t think it took us forward. It’s not so much the referendum itself, there’s nothing wrong with a democratic exercise, but I think some of the debate around that, some of the debate that was unleashed was unfortunate, and I think we’ve got a lot of work to do as a nation to bring us forward to ensure that we’re reconciled with our past, we are recognising our First Nations people and ensuring they have equal opportunity in this great country of ours.
Karvelas:
Stephen, I’ve always enjoyed talking to you, and I suspect we’ll talk again. You’ve got another couple of months. Thank you so much for joining us.