PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So if you thought the days of banks charging you to withdraw money from an ATM were over, well, think again. Not only has the Commonwealth Bank reintroduced ATM fees for some transactions, the CBA is charging their own customers for the privilege of accessing cash from their own accounts. That news comes at the same time Woolworths is trying to take its workers to the Fair Work Commission over a 2‑week strike that’s threatening to leave supermarket shelves empty in the run‑up to Christmas, which of course is really not the greatest timing, but we are going to work out where the government lands on all of these issues with the Assistant Treasurer and the Minister for Financial Services, Stephen Jones. Minister, welcome.
STEPHEN JONES:
Good morning, PK, good to be with you.
KARVELAS:
Before we get to the bank fees, let’s start with the developments overnight in South Korea. The government is monitoring the situation, but given we’ve seen the streets filled with protestors and military, what’s the advice for Australians who are over there?
JONES:
Look, a very fluid situation over there at the moment. We’re urging Australians to just check in with the travel advice, I can give a phone number for people in Australia to call it if they want assistance here and the latest advice, and that is 1300 555 135. Clearly, we’ve got concerns about what’s going on over there. Our number one concern is for the safety of Australians who are contemplating a trip over there. Just watch the travel advice is the best advice I can give at this moment given things are moving so rapidly.
KARVELAS:
I want to take you to these bank fees. Fair bit going on in the consumer space. Commonwealth Bank. You’ve accused the bank of giving customers the worst Christmas present ever. What can be done?
JONES:
Look, I’m urging the Commonwealth Bank to reconsider this. I think it’s a bad decision. It runs completely in the opposite direction to what the government’s trying to achieve here. We want Australians, wherever they live, to have access to bank services. We know that the majority of Australians for the majority of their retail transactions have moved to non‑cash payments, to tap and go, to phone apps, but we want to ensure that that significant number of Australians who want to and need to use cash have the ability to do that, and they shouldn’t be penalised; they shouldn’t be penalised for doing that. And a whole heap of arrangements we’re trying to put in place to secure that, whether it’s securing the distribution of cash, whether it’s the action we’re taking on surcharges for debit card transactions. This is all about ensuring that Australians get a fair go, whether they’re paying with cash or paying with tap and go, and what the Commonwealth Bank has announced in the last 24 hours just seems to be the worst approach to what is a significant problem.
KARVELAS:
The CBA says it costs around $400 million a year to handle and distribute cash. Do you accept that that there is a growing cost to handling cash?
JONES:
Look, there’s no doubt that there is a cost to using cash. There’s a cost to using every form of money. Some of it’s very, very transparent because you get a fee when you tap and go, and some of it’s not transparent because you don’t see the cost of moving cash around the country and throughout the economy. That said, there’s lots of cross subsidisations that go on in banks, lots of things that they do which involve cross subsidisation of the provision of services. And we just have a very strong view as a government that Australians who want to use cash should be able to use it, it should be accepted, and they shouldn’t be penalised for accessing their money and using it to buy their goods and services.
KARVELAS:
So is there anything you can do, or is the only thing you can do just say, ‘Stop it, Commonwealth Bank’ and they can ignore you?
JONES:
Well, the very first step in all of this is to urge the bank to reconsider what we think is a bad decision.
KARVELAS:
Okay. So that’s the first step. If it’s ignored, is there any other steps?
JONES:
Look, let’s just see how this plays out over the near future. We’re urging the bank to reconsider this decision. We don’t think it’s travelling in the right direction of what we’re trying to achieve for all Australians, and that is to ensure that they can use their cash, and they can access their cash, and they shouldn’t be penalised for doing it.
KARVELAS:
So how can you ensure it? I’m just trying to figure out if there are mechanisms that you’ve got up your sleeve.
JONES:
Look, I don’t want to signal or start talking about all of those things yet. The first step in all of this, Patricia, is to urge the bank to do the right thing by its customers who feel very strongly about their need and their right to use cash, and we support them in that.
KARVELAS:
Is the reason you don’t want to say anything more because there is no more, or because – I don’t know, like I’m just trying to work out if there is a mechanism.
JONES:
Look, Patricia, I don’t want to start speculating or going into all of that with you now. We’re urging the bank – the government is urging the bank to reconsider this decision, and any other banks who are considering doing something similar, we’re urging them to, you know, just have a second thought about this and have a good think about the impact that ‑‑
KARVELAS:
Is there any evidence that they’re having a second thought?
JONES:
Well, there’s a number of areas we’re working on where we’ve got good cooperation, and you know, that includes the discussions we’ve been having with them around, you know, sharing the cost of distributing cash, particularly throughout regions, or regional Australia. So there are a number of areas where we’re getting good cooperation, which is why I’m so concerned about this one and why the government is so concerned about this one, and it’s because it’s travelling in exactly the opposite direction that we need it to.
KARVELAS:
Let’s go to the Woolworths strike. Woolworths is trying to take its workers to the Fair Work Commission over a 2‑week strike that’s interrupting supply chains. Woolworths workers have vowed to keep striking. What do you think should happen?
JONES:
Look, we urge the parties to get around the table and resolve the issues that are between them. I know that this matter has been referred to the Fair Work Commission, which has the capacity and, you know, all the processes available to it to bring parties together, to sort through the issues, and that’s what we want to see happen. We want to see the workers get a fair go, we want to see them have their issues dealt with, we want to ensure that business disruption is minimised, and most importantly, we want to see – we want to ensure that Australians have access to their groceries over the coming weeks ahead. So a lot of reasons why we’d like to see this issue resolved and resolved quickly.
KARVELAS:
And if they aren’t successful at the Fair Work Commission in getting the strike called off, where will that leave them in terms of keeping shelves stocked?
JONES:
Look, again, I don’t want to start pre‑empting processes that might flow out. You’ve got very competent and professional operators working on both sides of this dispute. I know they have within them the capacity to work through the issues. You’ve got the Commission, which has a range of processes and powers. I don’t want to pre‑empt where they may go on this, I don’t think that’s helpful, but the government’s view is the parties should get back to the table, negotiate and see if we can resolve the issues.
KARVELAS:
Okay. The Australian is reporting that the Workplace Relations Minister, Murray Watt, and his office have held discussions with Woolworths executives in recent days. Are they actually playing an active role here?
JONES:
You’d expect, when you’ve got a dispute such as this, which has national significance, that you would have the government through the Workplace Relations Minister taking an active role in that. And yes, I know Murray Watt is doing exactly that, and I know that he has picked up the phone to both the union and to the business to encourage them to get back to the table and encourage them to resolve this dispute and express very firmly that’s the government’s view.
KARVELAS:
Do you understand why workers are concerned though? They raise issues around AI and the KPIs that they’re being put under; are they unacceptable?
JONES:
Look, I do understand that, you know, new work processes such as this would be of concern, and very challenging in a workplace environment. I absolutely understand that. I also believe you don’t really want to live in a country where workers don’t have the right to unionise and don’t have the right to collectively bargain and negotiate, but we have a pretty sophisticated system in Australia with lots of release valves, including the Fair Work Commission and their powers, and I think we’ve got the best of all worlds, where workers have the right to collectively bargain, negotiate, take stop work action in extreme circumstances, but if there is harm and damage to the national economy or public interest, we have the Fair Work Commission, which is able to step in and help to resolve that dispute, and I think that’s a good balance.
KARVELAS:
The government yesterday unveiled a plan to deal with tech scams via a new register of sender ID that will have approved numbers attached to certain brands and businesses. How is this going to reduce the growing number of scams Australians are subjected to?
JONES:
Yeah, thanks, Patricia. Look, Australians are sick of getting the SMS messages. They don’t know which ones are fake and which ones are real now. The same with phone calls, they won’t pick up a phone if they can’t trust the number that it’s coming in on. It’s actually having an impact on business processes now because people don’t trust the rails of modern commerce. So we’ve got to act, and we are acting. We’ve started about 18 months ago with what we call a black list, and what that involves is when, you know, somebody reports a scam number, a criminal activity on a number, we block it, and we’re blocking about a million calls and messages a day at the moment, but it’s a game of Whack‑A‑Mole.
So we’ve looked around the world and worked out, well, who’s doing, you know, something that’s innovative and good. We’ve had a look at what they’re doing up in Singapore, and if I can use the term a white list, that’s the approach they’re doing, so any mass SMS that is being sent out by a business, they have to be on a register, the name and the number have to be matched and if the name and the number don’t match when somebody tries to send out a mass SMS, it’s blocked by their telecommunications service, and that’s what we’re going to do. And it will have a significant uplift in the number of calls and messages that are blocked, which is keeping Australians safe. It means they can trust the messages that they’re going to be getting.
It will take us a while to build it out, so back end of next year, it will be up and running, but it will involve large businesses and large – so if you’re a bank, a government agency, you’ll have to have your name and your numbers on the register, and anybody who tries to send an SMS out that doesn’t match the Commonwealth Bank or the Australian Tax Office, or myGov’s registered numbers, that call will be blocked, and that SMS will be blocked.
KARVELAS:
Thanks for joining us this morning.
JONES:
Good to be with you.