RAFAEL EPSTEIN:
I’ll get back to more calls on what you’d change. Stephen Jones joins me now. He’s the Assistant Treasurer in Anthony Albanese’s government. Good morning.
STEPHEN JONES:
Good morning. Good to be with you.
EPSTEIN:
Is this government really up for looking at tax reform or are you just going to stay with sort of tinkering around the edges?
JONES:
Well, what we’ve put forward is both a pragmatic and a very – pragmatic in the sense that it deals with the current cost‑of‑living issues and I think a necessary piece of tax reform. It delivers a tax cut for every Australian that particularly focuses on middle Australia, who will be the big beneficiaries out of these changes. And, of course, the government is always looking at ways to make the system more effective and fairer. Whenever your listeners raise the issue of compliance we’ve put a big effort in over the last two years, particularly with multinational compliance ensuring that they’re paying their fair share. Some big wins there – in the billions of dollars – but also in other areas of compliance going after the criminals who are, for example, you know, doing illegal tobacco and that sort of stuff. A lot of work going in there. There’s no one silver bullet.
EPSTEIN:
You used the word “pragmatic”. Is it tinkering or fundamental change?
JONES:
Pragmatic in the sense of what is immediate, what’s something we need to do and can deliver which will make a difference to Australians right now. And what’s something that will get through the parliament? You would know, Raf, that as soon as you use the word “tax” it draws a lot of heat and attention. We want to ensure – and the Prime Minister is very firm on this – that we can deliver something for the great bulk of Australians who are struggling right now, and we can do it in the coming months.
EPSTEIN:
One more try at a value judgement from you: everything this government has done since coming to office, is that tinkering or fundamental change?
JONES:
Absolutely not. If you look at what we’ve done, whether it’s in the area of high‑balance superannuation, trying to make sure that the tax concessions in the superannuation system are more sustainable over the long term, a fundamental change. In so many areas of social policy, whether it’s reforms to childcare to make that cheaper and more affordable, our reforms to medicines and Medicare to ensure that more Australians can see a doctor and afford to then go from the doctor to the chemist to get their prescriptions filled, all of those things. Pragmatic but fundamentally focused on the needs of ordinary Australians.
And in the area – if you want to look at areas of significant reform look no further than our reforms in the energy market, having a serious climate change and energy policy, number one economic needs. So push back firmly on that issue. We’ve got a very ambitious reform agenda. In the area of tax, we want to be pragmatic and deliver something to the vast bulk of people in middle Australia who are doing it tough right now.
EPSTEIN:
Make your judgement. Stephen Jones, the Assistant Treasurer, fundamental or tinkering, or whatever you make of all the various things the government’s done since they’ve come to office. I will get to your calls in a moment on 1300 222 774.
Stephen Jones, I was castigated actually when I mentioned to the Treasurer last week a never ever question. So I will change my question in recognition of that feedback. The government has changed their mind on superannuation since the election. You have changed your mind on tax cuts after the election. Some people like it when you change your mind; some people don’t. But how do we know when the government is considering changes? How will we know when the circumstances are so different that you are actually going to change your mind? Because you were asked a lot about stage 3 and there was no indication, and then all of a sudden there was a change. So how do we know which things are up for grabs and which things won’t change?
JONES:
What you can absolutely trust this government to do is to have upfront conversations with people and to make, you know, the right decisions for the right reason. The Prime Minister laid out his thinking in great detail at the Press Club last week. He said over Christmas he’d been looking at the issue and thinking deeply about what’s the meaningful thing we can do to provide some cost‑of‑living relief to Australians who are struggling with, you know, making ends meet. And –
EPSTEIN:
Is it meaningful? A lot of people are getting, like, less than – like 700 bucks or something. Over a year, is that meaningful if insurance premiums – I mean, I’ll get on to that, if I can, but insurance premiums have gone up heaps, like, you know, four times the rate of inflation.
JONES:
Whole other conversation there which I’d be delighted to dive into you on, on insurance, sustainability of insurance, impact of climate change, impact of severe weather events. All of those sort of things, delighted to come back and have a long yak with you about that one.
Is it meaningful? Can I put it like this: if you are on an income, as I am, of over $200,000 a year, you might look at 30 bucks a week and say, “Well, that’s not much.” But if you’re somebody on a salary of $80,000 a year, I can tell you, every one of those dollars in the $30 – $32 a fortnight makes a big difference. It makes a big difference to what they can afford to put on their table, bills they can pay, shoes on their kids’ feet. It makes a huge difference. And sometimes there’s a little – I’ve noted a little bit of snobbery, I’ve got to say, in some of the conversations I’ve heard from the other side over whether 32 bucks a fortnight – sorry, 32 bucks a week is a meaningful tax cut. A lot of people I represent, I’ve got to say that, is meaningful and it will make a big difference to them.
EPSTEIN:
The Treasurer said yesterday that government policy took a half a percentage point off inflation. So that is – that’s a measurable impact. But is anybody going to notice?
JONES:
I tell you what – those people who are getting energy bill relief, they noticed. And what is quite clear – I’ve got to say this – what is quite clear, and it’s coming through in the data quite clearly, is the policies that we put in place, put into parliament last year around energy market reform and energy bill relief, which Peter Dutton and the Liberals and Coalition voted against, has made a meaningful and immediate difference and it’s starting to see wholesale prices come down, which will flow through to people’s energy bills over the year ahead.
But this is not, you know, me, Jim Chalmers, the Prime Minister speaking; this is the Australian Bureau of Statistics, which has quite clearly said and the Reserve Bank have quite clearly said it has made – our interventions in the energy sector, which are now starting to work made a meaningful difference and a decline in measured inflation.
And, you know, we can’t fix everything. But in the areas where we can make a difference, we’re having a crack. And, you know, whether it’s pragmatic tax changes or interventions in the energy markets, it’s making a difference. Cheaper medicines, fee‑free TAFE, all of these things. We cannot fix everything, but the things where we can make a difference, we’re having a crack.
EPSTEIN:
If I can ask you to keep this answer brief – I want to get to calls. In‑ asking you if you will change negative gearing, with negative gearing on property, most of the benefits go to the top end. If you rebalance it the way you rebalanced the tax cuts, it’s the same argument, isn’t it? Stage‑three, not massive change, but rebalance where the benefits go to the middle and lower end. Is there any consideration of rebalancing negative gearing on property?
JONES:
No. Look, our housing policy is focused on supply. And the elements of that are the housing accord, getting more houses built, because the number one issue we have in housing and the housing market at the moment is there’s not enough houses, not enough units, not enough flats for people to rent or buy. And we need to get more housing stock into the market and we need to do it quickly. That is the number one issue, and that’s what we’re focused on, and we don’t think, you know, fiddling around with the negative gearing is going to have the big impact on supply that we need right now.
EPSTEIN:
Appreciate your time this morning. Thanks a lot.
JONES:
Good to be with you.
EPSTEIN:
Stephen Jones, the Assistant Treasurer.