ROSS GREENWOOD:
But as I was saying, there are political matters today that do affect people’s hip pockets. One is about those fake ads that use images of famous people, as I was saying, Andrew Forrest, Gina Rinehart. I’ve been involved in this sort of stuff before, which really is quite horrendous, trying to con people into investing into things like cryptocurrency or other scam schemes. Well, the government now is trying to introduce legislation to crack down on those fake social media sites and also the telecommunications companies and social media sites themselves to stop the deepfakes. Well, the other issue is also financial advice, as I say, the government wants to reform that whole sector to give people access to more advice. But the issue there, who should pay? Well, as I was saying, the Assistant Treasurer, Stephen Jones is in charge of all of this, the passage of this, and I caught up with him earlier today.
STEPHEN JONES:
Ross, I’m passionate about this. I’ve spent the last 2 years in community halls from Far North Queensland to Hobart to Perth and most places in between talking about the need for industry and government to lift the standard to create greater protections, particularly in this area of social media fakes and fake advertising and SMSs that are bombarding people’s phones and banks without sufficient safety arrangements to keep people’s bank accounts safe. Well, this law, it will change all of that. It’ll put new obligations on banks, telcos, social media platforms to prevent and detect scams and to keep their customers safe. Significant fines and penalties, up to $50 million for a failure of the obligation. Without a word of exaggeration, it will be the toughest regime anywhere in the world, and so it should be. We have to keep Australians’ money and information safe, and I’m calling on the Coalition to throw their weight behind it so we secure passage of this bill by the end of next week.
GREENWOOD:
One of the real frustrations for anybody who’s even tried to shut down one of these schemes is simply you get a brick wall when you hit the social media site. In the past I’ve been to Meta, I’ve been to Google, I’ve been to a range of these to say, ‘What will you do to shut this down?’ Now, they have all great intentions, but in the end, nothing happens. They keep on just simply popping up. Where does this put obligation on them to be able to try and nip these fraudulent schemes in the bud?
JONES:
There’s an obligation on them to be proactive, to prevent it happening in the first place. A simple thing they can and should do, they will do, after these laws are up and running is verifying their advertiser. Are you really Alan Kohler? Are you really Ross Greenwood? Are you really Twiggy Forrest? Are you really Gina Rinehart? Prove it, and if not, you can’t advertise and post an ad saying that you are. Pretty simple thing, mate. Most banks today have got to verify. All banks have got to verify the identity of the customer before they open an account. Should be no different for a social media platform. You couldn’t, as Sky News, broadcast an ad by somebody without verifying they were the Commonwealth Bank before they posted an ad on your site. So, should be no different. These laws will make it mandatory that they do these things. Big fines and penalties if they don’t. Some people are saying the fines and penalties are too heavy. I tell you what, by the end of this week, Australians will have lost $50 million to the scammers. So, a $50 million fine for failing to meet your duty is about what Australia is currently losing to scams each and every week.
GREENWOOD:
Yeah, and that’s the thing, because people – are you surprised, continue to be duped by these types of scams. Surely you’d have imagined the information or the targets, the signals would be out there so that people would be able to recognise these scams, but yet, seemingly, they keep on getting through.
JONES:
Yeah. The thing is, I mean, they’re obviously targeting older Australians who are losing the most, but with the use of AI technology, they’re getting more and more sophisticated and the design and the social engineering makes them harder to detect, which is why it’s so important to put those strong obligations in right across the economy.
GREENWOOD:
So, ok, this takes us to the other issue, which is about financial literacy and financial advice. And Australians have $4 trillion in superannuation funds right now and are some of the wealthiest retirees in the world. Yet at the same time, you know, Australians probably have a lack of financial advice in comparison to many other parts of the world. So, the question is now, who should pay for that? Financial advice seems to be a key issue with the legislation you’re trying to get through our parliament.
JONES:
Yeah, good point, Ross. Big issue. Five million Australians are either at or approaching retirement, they don’t have a safe or affordable door to walk through. We want to change that. We want to ensure that whether you’re seeing a professional financial advisor or your superannuation fund or another firm, that you have access to safe, reliable, affordable advice that is in the customer’s best interest. Reforming laws to do that, you would know, mate, there’s no such thing as a free meal, so you pay for it one way or another. We will ensure that the payment arrangements that we put in place are sector neutral, ensure that there’s transparency on these things, and ensure that Australians have access to the advice and we have a level playing field that is both effective, but most importantly, safe. We’re not going to go back to the past, we’re not going to go back to the past where we had fees for no service. We’re not going to go back to the past where somebody was on a rolling annual commission that just kept rolling over for advice they never got. We’re not going to go back to those bad old days. So, it’ll be safe, it’ll be professional, it’ll be affordable and it’ll be modern.
GREENWOOD:
So, the question is whether industry super funds, which have the bulk of the money in Australia, whether they ultimately can somehow do it almost like insurance, where it’s across the pool and shared across the whole pool of those. Now, those who are in banks say, for example, they say, well that’s not kind of fair because the individual actually has to pay for the advice if you’re not in one of those big super funds. I think this is where there’s friction again which brings up the old superannuation wars between the non‑industry funds and the industry funds.
JONES:
Yeah, I think it’s about a third, a third, a third between industry funds, non‑industry funds and for‑profit funds, the retail funds and self‑managed super funds, working really hard through this and other associated issues to ensure that we’re sector neutral, a level playing field, something that protects the interests of the fund member, the person who’s receiving the advice, which has got to be front and centre in all of this. And I’m confident the policy that I’ve sent off to the legislative drafters to work up, that I’ll be releasing in a few weeks, will have ticked all of those boxes and will have the support of not only industry but also, more importantly, frankly meets the public interest, and that is the need to get more information and advice into the hands of the people who need it.
GREENWOOD:
I’ve got a sense you might get the first one up about the deepfake scams. I reckon that legislation you might get through, I’m just wondering about the second one because it’s been so contentious over such a long period of time. What’s your own sense as to which one of those is most likely to get through our parliament quickly?
JONES:
I want both of them through and I’m not going to put a bill up to fail. I want to ensure that as we move forward, we have broad consensus. I’ve listened to all of the concerns, issues and dealt with all what I believe to be the reasonable objections. But I’d ask all of the stakeholders here focus on the main game. What’s the main game here? And the main game is ensuring that Australians who need affordable, reliable, professional advice that meets their needs as and when a circumstance arise, has the availability to get that advice. That’s the main game. So, we’ve got to put all of our own sectoral interests and our own individual interests aside and say, what are we trying to achieve here? And it’s a better system for everyone, and that’s what I’m bringing before the parliament, and I think when the legislation is produced, I think people will find it ticks all of those boxes.
GREENWOOD:
Stephen Jones, good to have in the program today. Many thanks for your time.