THOMAS ORITI:
We often hear about Australians being caught up in scams, but I've got some data this morning. The extent of the issue might shock you. This new data shows Australians lost $2.7 billion to scams in 2023 alone, with more than 600,000 reports made in that year. 600,000; $2.7 billion. The government wants to address the issue and thinks a new mandatory code will help. So, how would that work? Stephen Jones is the Financial Services Minister who joins us now from our Canberra studios. Stephen, good morning. Thanks for your time.
STEPHEN JONES:
Good to be with you.
ORITI:
Those numbers, pretty staggering. $2.7 billion is an incredible amount of money in one year in Australia. This is not global or over a number of years. It's extraordinary. Has it always been so high or is it on the rise?
JONES:
It's – what we've seen over the last decade is scam losses basically doubling every year. When we came into office, I think the previous year, about $3.1 billion worth of losses. So, yes, that's a big number. $2.7 billion is a big number. I actually take some hope from the fact that for the first time since 2016, we've seen scam losses come down – a 13 per cent decrease on the previous year. And that's a direct result of some of the interventions we've made over the last 7 months. So, it gives hope that the program we've got in place is working and the new things that you've talked about, the codes of practice that we'll introduce this year, will make an even bigger difference and we can get that loss figure down even more again.
ORITI:
I want to chat to you about that in a minute. But that casts a revealing run on how bad it was if $2.7 billion is a decrease. It's still not great, though. I mean, how are scammers changing the way they try to defraud Australians? I imagine new technology, AI, all that stuff's being harnessed and, you know, it becomes a challenge for law enforcement agencies to catch up.
JONES:
Yeah, 100 per cent. This – they're nimble, they're smart and they know who they're going after. There is no accident that over 65s represent the area where the people are losing the most. And we're actually – the losses have been stubbornly high, so telecommunications networks, so SMS and phone calls remain the predominant contact method. But what we're seeing is a significant rise in the social media platforms being the favoured way through which these criminals are contacting their victims.
ORITI:
Do you feel as – I mean there's been a lot of talk about this in recent times, right? Not just over scams, but just graphic content in general. Do you feel as though the social media platforms are across this and they're doing enough to help?
JONES:
Not nearly enough. Not nearly enough. They can be doing so much more. They've got some of the best technology in the world, the most sophisticated detection and targeting technologies in the world. If they can, through their use of data, target precisely the sort of advertising they're directing at an individual Facebook or Instagram or TikTok user, then they can do much more to be protecting those exact users from the sorts of scams and criminal content that's being directed at them. So, in answer to your question, can they be doing more? Absolutely.
ORITI:
Okay, so let's chat solutions here. A lot of challenges there. You've expressed a certain element of optimism there that, that $2.7 billion figure is staggeringly a drop. But this mandatory code, who would it apply to and how would it help?
JONES:
Well, let's start with what we've done already. So, we're filtering phone calls and SMS messages. About 100 million SMS's messages, for example, over the last 7 months have been blocked. We've set up a National Anti‑Scam Centre, which has got 3 functions: education, disruption and information coordination. So, the next step in the process is the mandatory codes of practice. So, they'll be anchored in the Australian Consumer Law. They'll have penalties and obligations and compensation flowing if the businesses aren't doing the right thing by their consumers. Some of the things that they'll be required to do. For example, in the area of banks, we want to ensure that they have in place programs to prevent and disrupt. They have mechanisms for consumers to report and that the bank rapidly respond, that they're closing down mule accounts, they've got confirmation of payee arrangements.
ORITI:
The banks would probably argue, just to interrupt, they'd probably argue they are doing that at the moment, right?
JONES:
Look, I welcome the fact that a lot of banks have moved voluntarily and quickly and put mechanisms in place. And indeed, a part of the loss that we've been, the drop in losses that we've been talking about this morning has been the initiatives that banks took in slowing down the off‑ramps for the scammers, which are transferring money into cryptocurrency exchanges. That's made a material difference, and I welcome that. And it shows that more can be done at the bank level. The telecommunications platforms, that's about filtering and blocking the criminal phone calls and SMS messages, some happening now, much more can be done. Social media platforms, again it's about pulling. It's about identifying and pulling down the malicious content and having a rapid report and respond mechanism in place. Compulsory information exchange with the National Anti Scam Centre as well. So, all of this stuff needs to be put in place. Dispute resolution procedures need to be sorted so that a customer, if they have lost money or they feel like they've been a victim of a scam, they know where to go to and they can get a rapid response to it as well.
ORITI:
Before I let you go, I just want to ask, as we had the ACTU on a little bit earlier, Council of Trade Unions. They've, this morning, just given your portfolio; they've called for a 9 per cent pay rise for key feminised industries that the ACTU says are undervalued. What do you make of that push?
JONES:
Look, we've been working hard with unions and with businesses in some of the key feminised industries. For example, in aged care, record pay rises. In fact, one of the biggest expenditures in our first Budget was funding wage increases in that sector. Overwhelmingly, they are women. A big boost in the community sector as well. We'll work through the mechanisms we've put in place. So, we've changed the industrial relations laws to make it easier for workers in these industries to collectively negotiate. And we're working through with the unions and with the businesses in those sectors to ensure they can get fair pay.
ORITI:
They put a number on it, though. You know, they put a number on it, 9 per cent. And this idea – and Sally McManus is saying that economic inequality, it follows women through life, you know, becomes entrenched. Is that a point? And would putting a number on it maybe streamline this process?
JONES:
Look, the unions will make a claim and they'll pursue those claims through the Fair Work Commission and through bargaining processes. I'm not going to be in a position of preempting how those processes play out over the coming months. But just look at what we've done. You can look at what we've done and look at our track record here and it's about closing the gender pay gap and it's about working cooperatively with businesses and employers and unions in the sector to close this gap and to get wages moving again. And it's working. Four per cent average wage increase over the last twelve months after an effective wage freeze. So, I think look at what we've done in this area and I think Australians know that if we have the capacity to do something meaningful and sustainable, we will.
ORITI:
Stephen Jones, thanks for joining us.
JONES:
Good to be with you.