TOM CONNELL:
Joining us live is Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones for more on this. Thanks very much for your time. We’ve had probably the biggest hint in the past couple of days on where the government might think it can raise more money. The PRRT. Is change needed on how this applies to gas? Because it’s a huge natural advantage right now. It’s not benefitting the country in terms of cheap prices, and it’s not really benefitting the budget coffers as much as it does everywhere else around the world.
STEPHEN JONES:
Look, we know, Tom, that we’ve got a huge revenue problem. We’ve got a structural – we’ve inherited a structural deficit with the Budget and a trillion dollars’ worth of debt on top of that is putting in another huge cost burden, taking money away from other parts of the Budget. So we’ve got to have a conversation about revenue. We’ll look at a whole range of things, including whether we’ve got the calibration right on all the existing arrangements. You know, obviously the PRRT, a complex issue, and we want to ensure that we’re maximising the benefit that Australians get out of all the resources that we own, and we want to ensure particularly at a time when we’re going through an energy crisis that we’ve got all of our regulatory settings right. More focus right now, I’ve got to say, on how we ensure that we’ve got gas prices appropriately set so that we can support our manufacturing and support our households and support energy generation in Australia. That’s our – leading out of the Budget – that’s our focus over the new term, to ensure that we can support Australian households through a temporary but very impactful hit on their household budgets with energy prices heading north.
CONNELL:
I’ll get to that in a moment. But you mentioned having a “revenue problem”. Because on one side there’s spending issues, and we’re looking into sustainability for programs, so savings needed. When you say a revenue problem, is that a recognition that we need to raise more tax overall, however that happens? When you say revenue problem, that indicates you need to raise more money?
JONES:
Look, there’s no doubt that we have a structural deficit, mate. Everyone who’s looked at the Budget with a sober set of eyes has come to that conclusion. And Peter Dutton last night affirmed that he supported every one of Labor’s new investments but didn’t support our savings measures. So, he’s also going to have to come up – if he wants to form government – he’s also going to have to come up with an answer to the structural deficit in the Budget. Our approach in this Budget has been to ensure that we’ve got compliance with existing laws. So that’s about ensuring that whether it’s personal taxpayers, corporate taxpayers, that we’re getting every cent that is currently owed under existing laws. We’ve done some new stuff in the area of multinational taxation to ensure that, you know, multinational corporations aren’t using existing laws and loopholes in existing laws to avoid their rightful obligations to the Australian people. That’s where we’re focused at the moment. But, of course, over the –
CONNELL:
But, I mean, that’s the margins, isn’t it?
JONES:
We are going to have to come up with some answers. I’m being frank with you, Tom.
CONNELL:
Yeah, okay.
JONES:
We’re going to have to come up with some answers if Australians want these services, how we’re going to pay for them.
CONNELL:
Okay. Fair enough. So raising more in tax in some way, just to clarify, however that happens. Our tax take, given the issue in your view, needs to increase?
JONES:
Look, our number one focus at the moment, I’ve got to say, is ensuring that we collect every dollar that is owed under existing laws. And I’ll have a bit more to say about this over the next few days, about our initiatives and what we’re doing in this area. But the number one thing we’re doing and the initiatives in this Budget – come to next year’s Budget next year – but our initiatives in this Budget are around ensuring that every cent that is currently owed to Australians under the existing law is being paid, and that’s about compliance and ensuring that we’re doing the tax collection process properly. Because if we’re ensuring that we’ve got compliance with the existing laws it means we don’t have to look elsewhere for additional tax in another areas. We can ensure we’re getting a maximum tax take under existing laws.
CONNELL:
All right. Well, it sounds like the latter is not ruled out at least. But, yeah, it is a serious structural deficit – forty billion or so, depending on where you look at it, and only increasing. Power prices - this was a really clear promise from the government, the Labor opposition then, before the election. We’ve all heard it this week - $275 off your annual power bill by 2025. That’s pre‑election prices. For whatever - there are various reasons for this, but it’s pretty clear that’s not going to happen, right?
JONES:
Look, we hope we can get there, Tom. I can’t be any clearer than that. We made some good‑faith commitments prior to the election around the modelling, independent modelling, that we had done on our energy policies – rewiring the nation, emphasis on batteries, emphasis on hydrogen, more renewable generation in the system, fixing up the mess that we inherited. The one person in Australia who doesn’t get to complain about us having an energy policy is Angus Taylor because he was responsible for destroying twenty‑two of the previous government’s energy policies. The proximate cause of increasing energy bills today – Angus Taylor and the war in Ukraine. Can’t be clearer than that. We are going to be putting in place measures – and we’re exploring measures and things that we can do with state governments, with energy generators and distributors to ensure that we can get more downward pressure on energy prices. But we were very transparent based on what we know today where things are likely to go over the course of the next twelve months. You can’t have a sensible conversation with Australians unless you’re putting the facts right out there and that’s what we did.
TOM CONNELL:
[indistinct] suggests it’s gone from a “we will do it” to a “hope”, given the recent increases. Can I ask you finally and briefly - you’ve had a sighter on the Budget. You know the constraints, you know what’s happening on tax and spending and all that. Is Labor looking to be able to project a balanced budget in the forward estimates by next election? Is that possible do you think?
JONES:
So much uncertainty in the national and international economy at the moment, Tom – absolutely, you can be absolutely clear that our objective is to pay down debt and bring down the deficit. That is absolutely our objective. The first installment with $22 billion worth of savings in this Budget. We will be continuing to work over the next seven months before the May budget to ensure we can find more savings and ensure that we can start to pay down the debt and reduce the deficits.
CONNELL:
All right.
JONES:
But the shape of the international economy, where we’re sitting today, very difficult for us to make specific timelines on how we’re going to be able to pay down that debt and reduce that deficit.
CONNELL:
I might ask you in a couple of years. Stephen Jones, thanks for your time today.
JONES:
Good to be with you, Tom.