EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER:
To discuss the week's politics in Canberra, joining us from the Gold Coast is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer, Steve Ciobo, and here in our Sydney studio...
STEVE CIOBO:
Good evening.
EMMA ALBERICI:
...is the Shadow Parliamentary Secretary to the Shadow Treasurer, Labor's Ed Husic.
Welcome to you both.
ED HUSIC:
Evening
STEVE CIOBO:
Good evening, Emma.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Steve Ciobo, it's now fairly clear that Australia will become involved in Iraq militarily. Do you have any reservations about that?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well I'm not sure I agree with that. It's certainly the case that we're having a close look at what's taking place. We have examples of the worst sort of atrocities that you could imagine, Emma. We haven't seen this kind of gratuitous violence, murdering taking place; we've even seen crucifixions. I mean, these are acts of pure evil. The Government is firmly committed to doing what we can, and that'll be done in consultation of course with the US, which as effectively the cop on the beat for the planet is looking closely at what needs to happen and the air strikes have provided some humanitarian relief in terms of reducing the threat from ISIL, but look, we've got to obviously keep watching what is a fast-moving situation.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Ed Husic, would Labor back engagement in another war in Iraq?
ED HUSIC:
We've been fully supportive of the Government's moves in providing humanitarian relief and support and we think that's been very important. We've got to wait - and I think Steve was touching upon it a moment ago: we would get through the detail of any potential military involvement and be very careful about how we proceed on that. I think what's clear is what's occurring in northern Iraq and what's happened within Syria is barbarism and potential genocide and that does force the world and must force the world to concentrate on what could be done. I think President Obama's comments as well about requiring a number of other countries within the region, within the Middle East to step up too, does need to be taken into account, because as he indicated, you can't have proxies being used to advance your own interests and then expect that nothing be done of the consequences afterwards and we're seeing those play out in an horrific way right now, so we'll have to wait and see where this proceeds in terms of further engagement, but certainly the humanitarian assistance has been crucial and has been well-timed as well.
EMMA ALBERICI:
The Australian public was divided when it came to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. What are you both hearing from your constituents this time around - Steve Ciobo?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, look, Emma, there's obviously legitimate concern in the community about what's taking place over there. The rise of the Islamic State, or ISIL, really is very, very concerning. It presents a clear danger in Australia. We've seen radicalised individuals from Australia, from the UK, from the US - people that you would have thought on any reasonable measure would have no desire to step into harm's way, to be involved in the kinds of atrocities. And, Emma, I've got to be honest, it just breaks my heart to see seven-year-old Aussie kids who have been raised in this country holding up a severed head of a so-called enemy. This is just - cannot be tolerated. And I think that Australians recognise that we can't just sit on our hands, we can't just allow what is effectively the creation of a terrorist army in the Middle East because there are direct linkages, one, back to Australia, but two, there's also linkages through radicalised Islamists in our near neighbours, like Indonesia, for example. And so we need to be very vigilant about what's going on here, but we also of course need to be cautious that we don't rush headlong into creating another problem, but we can't simply sit on our hands.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Ed Husic, what are the people in your community saying?
ED HUSIC:
I think there'd be concerned about - and obviously when you hear the Director-General of ASIO say that we do face a problem with radicalisation, that that does need to be dealt with. I think that will be first and foremost the thing that people will focus on and we need to address that. I think - I'd have to echo Steve's comments: I mean, I think just some of the horrific imagery that we've seen, particularly of young Australians being involved in the way that they have has just chilled people to the core. I think in terms of our nearest neighbour, Indonesia, outgoing President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono saying that this is something that is defacing, deforming the followers of the Islamic faith in terms of seeing what's happening under the name of religion over in northern Iraq and that something has to be done clearly within the region here and within the world community, tackling this radicalisation and being able to halt the advance of Islamic State is critical. And we do need to work on it together, as we've been discussing earlier.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Now still on matters of foreign affairs, Tony Abbott has called the crisis in Ukraine an invasion by Russia. He said it was a clear-cut case of a larger country bullying a smaller country which should have no place in our world. What does the Australian Prime Minister intend to do about that, Steve Ciobo?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, call a spade a spade, Emma. What the Prime Minister made clear today is that in the view of the Australian Government, when we see Russian divisions or Russian armed forces enter into Ukrainian territory, it is an invasion, and the Prime Minister called it for what it is. And I know that the Prime Minister is - and together with the Foreign Minister, having conversations with other world leaders. There's obviously a very significant level of concern among NATO and in particular of course the Europeans about what's transpired. This is a very serious situation. And it's extraordinarily unfortunate that Russia continues to be so antagonistic and continues to be so aggressive. We've already seen, tragically, the loss of Australian lives with the downing of MH17 by what on all counts seems to be a Russian-supplied surface-to-air missile. This situation is intolerable, and ultimately, though, we also need to be mindful of our role in the world. And again, this is another situation where we look to NATO and the US and we work out collaboratively what we can do.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Ed Husic, are you entirely comfortable, is Labor entirely comfortable with the Prime Minister's tough talk on Russia. He's been the only world leader prepared to call this an invasion.
ED HUSIC:
Well, there's no way that Russia can claim that it's hands-off in this. It's evident that hardware and troops are crossing the border and that this is being done to support the separatists within the Ukraine. Bill Shorten today said that we do need to examine on two fronts action. One is in particular examining the merit of having President Putin here for the G20 and getting the G20 to make a decision, given that it's not an Australian conference, it's an international one. We don't, for a whole range of reasons, feel that it'd be appropriate for his attendance, and also examining further sanctions against Russia. And we simply cannot stand by and allow international borders to be redrawn through the barrel of a gun.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Now let's move to domestic politics. The Budget is all about choices. Tell me, Steve Ciobo, why did your government choose to make a 20 per cent cut to university funding?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well what we're looking at doing, Emma - you're focusing on one aspect of higher education reform. What we want to do, Emma, is make sure that we set up Australia's tertiary education sector for a stronger tomorrow. We want to make sure that it's sustainable. We want to make sure that Australian tertiary institutions are among the world's best ...
EMMA ALBERICI:
Pardon me for the interruption, but I'll draw you back to the specific question, which is, admittedly, only part of your reform plan, but it is a plan to cut 20 per cent of funding. You just want said you want to make the sector stronger. How does cutting 20 per cent of its funding make it stronger?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, Emma, unfortunately you are only focusing on one aspect and you're disregarding the fact that there'll be other revenue available to the tertiary sector through the deregulation of higher education fees. So, I think in isolation ...
EMMA ALBERICI:
Through higher fees.
STEVE CIOBO:
... it's a little bit - I think it's, in isolation, a little misleading to just focus in on that. The fact is that we have a deregulated sector in primary education, deregulated in secondary education and it's hardly radical, frankly, to have deregulation in tertiary education, and what's more, Emma, under our proposal, we are going to open up to tens of thousands of more Australian students opportunities for taxpayer support in sub-degrees as well. So let's not lose sight of the fact that this is actually about creating a lot more opportunity for tens of thousands of students, it's about putting tertiary education on an equal footing with primary and secondary education, and most importantly, it's about making sure that Australia's tertiary education sector can be world's best and isn't continuing to be held back as it has been over the past several decades.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Ed Husic?
ED HUSIC:
Well, this country's valued merit and people's ability to get ahead based on their talent and what we're seeing here is effectively pricing out the best and the brightest. I mean, what we're having here is a trifecta of fee deregulation, pricing people out, crippling student debt, changing the interest on the debt that's paid and the cut to the funding of the universities themselves. And so what we're seeing is, under higher education policy of the Coalition is get the best and brightest out of the way and clear a path for the dumbest of the richest. It's completely unacceptable.
STEVE CIOBO:
What a ridiculous statement, Ed. A ridiculous statement.
ED HUSIC:
And we should also take note that when the Coalition were announcing this, they were saying, "Well, this is all about making it fairer. 60 per cent of higher education is paid for by the taxpayer." Now, as a member of Parliament, I don't have anyone rush up to me grab me by the shirt front saying, "I don't want to pay for education. I want a dumber nation." And they're saying, the Coalition, that this is being paid for by cleaners and nurses and welders. And the fact of the ...
EMMA ALBERICI:
Let me interrupt you for a moment ...
ED HUSIC:
Just let me make this point. Those people that sacrifice for their children to go onto university would want university to be made easier to access, not harder. We should not be pricing people out of the education system, which is what we're getting now.
EMMA ALBERICI:
But Ed Husic, Labor was the party that brought back student fees and Julia Gillard took $2.8 billion out of higher education to fund the Gonski reforms. Do you really expect the public to buy the line that you're now the best friend of the university sector?
ED HUSIC:
We - we went through the whole notion under the Hawke-Keating governments of bringing in HECS to find a new way to support the growth of tertiary education and I certainly supported that and still do. But you can't go to the point of basically driving people out of the sector by making the changes that are being put forward by this government, a government that said that they would not be lifting fees. They made this commitment before and after the election. And in terms of the Gonski changes - look, people can - I don't know intend to claim it was an elegant move, but it was designed with purpose. The purpose was to fund a complete review and change the way the delivery of education. This Government has basically taken the cut and refused to fund education and they're pointing to the university saying the university support it. Well they're hostages. I mean, if they don't support what the Government's doing, they don't get fee deregulation. If they don't get that, they lose both funding and any other way to be able to fund universities into the future.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Steve Ciobo, Christopher Pyne said that you have to be realistic about these things. What's Plan B if you can't get these reforms through the Senate?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, what we're focused on, Emma, are getting these reforms through. And, I mean, frankly, if anything Ed had just said had been anchored in the slightest bit of truth, it might have some merit, but the fact is that Labor is on one of the most aggressive and regrettable scare campaigns that we've seen in this nation. This is the Labor Party, as you identified, that ripped $2.8 billion out of tertiary education. We are trying to expand tertiary education now for the first time ever, Emma, to sub-degrees. That is going to enable tens of thousands of Australians to have access to university. That's a massive plus for making our nation smarter, not dumber, as Ed's saying. This is where I just highlight Labor are willing to say anything to scare people into what's going on.
The second point is this, Emma: in relation to deregulation of the tertiary sector, guess what?: we don't have every secondary school across the country charging hundreds of thousands of dollars for secondary education. And guess what else?: that won't happen at a tertiary level. The notion that every single university is going to charge $100,000 for a degree is completely false and completely laughable and should be treated with contempt and disdain because it is completely untrue. And so what we're going to see is like in every other market, some courses will go up, some courses will go down, but ultimately, the outcome will be that for the first time we will see Australian tertiary institutions at global rankings, among the world's best, and not all averaging around the middle, as most Australian tertiary institutions are now because they're shackled by government regulation.
ED HUSIC:
Steve's right, you know. He's right when he says not all universities will charge the same - and that's the problem. The thing is, not all universities will be. You'll have the ones - the big eight will be able to charge what they want. Other universities won't. They won't get the level of funding support and so what we'll have is we'll have tiers of quality appearing, where if you can afford it, you'll get it. And simply to say that education should be...
STEVE CIOBO:
So, Ed, do I assume therefore that you want to re-regulate second education?
ED HUSIC:
Hang on a second, Steve. I've certainly let you go on. But the fact of the matter is what they're trying to do is price people out of education and education should be provided on the basis of merit.
STEVE CIOBO:
Oh, goodness sake.
ED HUSIC:
It should not be provided on the basis of your bank balance.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Now, we have to move on because we are going to run out of time and I wanted to touch on the review into Australia's Renewable Energy Target, which has been released. Steve Ciobo, before the election, your party said it would keep the 20 per cent target and the business community made billions of dollars worth of investments based on that promise. Can those investors rely on your government to keep that promise?
STEVE CIOBO:
Look, of course. We're very sensitive to sovereign risk. What we also promised, Emma, was that we would undertake a review of the RET. We indicated that and that's entirely consistent with the legislation, which also required a review of the RET. Now that review has taken place. It's - a report's been produced. It's not a report by government, it's a report to the Government. So we'll have a look at Dick Warburton's report, we'll assess the recommendations that are contained in the report, and in due course, we will have a response to it.
EMMA ALBERICI:
I do beg your pardon for the interruption, but I just want to draw you back to ...
STEVE CIOBO:
That's OK.
EMMA ALBERICI:
... a speech Greg Hunt, the Environment Minister, gave before the election, where he actually said, "We approach the findings of the RET review with an open mind, but reaffirm our commitment to the 20 per cent target." Will you stand by that?
STEVE CIOBO:
Look, I mean, as far as the Government's concerned, we've got to look at this review. We are acutely sensitive to sovereign risk. We are aware of the dangers that flow from sovereign risk. We saw what transpired under the Australian Labor Party when they completely made a mess of the mining sector and we saw projects collapse under ...
EMMA ALBERICI:
I don't think you're answering - with respect, I don't think you're answering my question.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, I mean, look, the fact is that the Government has made it clear what our commitments are. The second fact is that the report's been delivered to government and that we're going to respond to it once we've had a chance to thumb the pages and make a determination about the best way forward. But our election commitments are clear, our election commitments stand. Likewise, this review - this report, I should say, has just been handed to government, so we're going to have a look at it.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Ed Husic.
ED HUSIC:
Yeah, they make a promised to keep the RET and then they also promise to review it. I mean, it was never a commitment that was believable.
STEVE CIOBO:
It's actually required by legislation.
EMMA ALBERICI:
No, but to be fair, it's a requirement under the act that the RET was reviewed every year. It was reviewed every year under the Labor government too.
ED HUSIC:
Well - yeah, sure, but, from their perspective, no-one seriously believed that this was going to be a government that was friend of the renewable sector. I mean, they've had ginger groups that have formed within the Government challenging the existence of the RET. People get that there's huge investment, huge job growth, that this is the way of the future. China pumps out more solar panels, they pump them out faster than the Coalition breaks election commitments. They get that this is a industry that's worth supporting and it will generate energy in a much cleaner way down the track. And so what we're faced with now is a bunch of Neanderthals that will effectively be happy to see us not create - not generate energy in a better way, see thousands of jobs go and this from the same mob that were complaining about $100 lamb roast, but happy to see jobs in the renewable sector and investment in that sector collapse.
EMMA ALBERICI:
Unfortunately we're out of time.
STEVE CIOBO:
Ed, you're getting angry, it might. (Laughs) Thanks, Emma.
EMMA ALBERICI:
We have to leave it there, unfortunately. Thank you both very much for your time.
ED HUSIC:
And look what's happening to the climate. He's in the Gold Coast. That doesn't look like the Gold Coast at all!
EMMA ALBERICI:
(Laughs) Thank you both very much.
STEVE CIOBO:
Thank you.