JOHN STANLEY:
Well, people come into this country, they come in all different ways, of course. We have our immigration program, which has been cranked up to record levels, certainly under the Howard government, over the last couple of years as well, a very large number of people coming into the country.
We've also had, since the election of the Rudd government, more than 5000 people arrive here by boat, asylum-seekers, and that is the crisis being dealt with by Julia Gillard. She's signalled a break from the previous policy, saying political correctness shouldn't hinder debate about this issue, essentially saying people should be able to express their concern about people coming here, that that doesn't mean you're a racist.
Equally though, people who concern themselves about the treatment of detainees and concern themselves with people fleeing persecution shouldn't be called soft. We can have a sensible debate about this.
I think we've been having it for the last few years. The difficulty is coming up with a policy that is going to allow people to come through normal channels - 13,000 we take each year through the humanitarian intake - and deny the people-smugglers their trade.
The man at the centre of a couple of these debates is the Sustainable Population Minister, Tony Burke. He is looking at ways that we can accommodate more people in this country. He's on the line with us now. Mr Burke, good morning to you.
TONY BURKE:
G'day, John. I've got to tell you, I made the unwise decision this morning to walk to work here in Canberra before I knew I was doing the interview so if my hand falls off during the course of this interview you'll know why.
JOHN STANLEY:
It's very, very cold there. Well, given that you are in difficult circumstances, asylum-seekers, boat people coming to Australia, is it possible to find a way to be tougher on boat people without adopting John Howard's old policy?
TONY BURKE:
The first thing we have to acknowledge, John, is there's no magical solution on this one. There are other countries around the world struggling with the exact same problem but it is an issue that can be managed in different ways and Julia has said that she intends to make sure that it's managed better than it has been.
JOHN STANLEY:
Let me just interrupt you, if you don't mind because you say there's no magical solution but the Opposition says that they had a policy which did work because it stopped the boats to - I think there were three in one year. So if that's the case, if that's their track record, aren't they able to point to it and say, well, if we restore that policy the boats will stop coming?
TONY BURKE:
Oh, yeah, if I can pick up on that. First of all, for the 12 years they were in office you've got to pick a particular year to get the figure of three. That certainly wasn't the record the whole way through.
Secondly the policies that they introduced weren't the reason when the boats actually went down. That year was following the invasion of Afghanistan when the Taliban was knocked over and a whole lot of people stopped fleeing from Afghanistan.
A number of the policies that they refer to, like temporary protection visas, when they were introduced the number of boats went up not down and Nauru, which they often flag as being, you know, the Pacific Solution or some magical answer to it all. The moment the 2004 election was out of the way all but two of them got on a plane and went to Melbourne.
So there's a bit of hype in what Tony Abbott's claiming the record is. That doesn't mean that there's nothing that can be done and Julia's said during the course of this week she'll have more to say on how she intends to manage the issue more effectively than we have.
JOHN STANLEY:
So you're saying that temporary protection visas and offshore processing would not stem the flow of boats?
TONY BURKE:
What I'm saying is the record of the Howard government, when they were introduced, they didn't. When those measures were introduced they all ended up coming to Australia anyway. They just waited for the 2004 election to get out of the way before they did it and temporary protection visas, when they were introduced, the number of boats went up. I'm saying that's just the record.
I'm not foreshadowing where Julia's going to go during the course of this week. There's a whole lot of consultation and a whole lot of working through on those issues.
JOHN STANLEY:
But that sounds to me like a defence of the existing policy and you're effectively saying that there's really nothing we can do to prevent boats arriving on our shores.
TONY BURKE:
John, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there's no magical solution. It's not as simple as what Tony Abbott's wanting to claim. The record of the Howard government isn't what he describes and Julia has committed that she does believe this issue can be better managed but it's an announcement that she'll be making during the course of the week and I'm not going to be able to pre-empt it.
JOHN STANLEY:
All right, on population, this Big Australia, you were at pains before Julia Gillard became Prime Minister to say that there hadn't been a target set, that Kevin Rudd had made this reference to Big Australia but there'd been no formal target set. What has changed from the time when he was Prime Minister to now where you've got this new title?
TONY BURKE:
There's a different emphasis from Julia Gillard. As we work through a portfolio that should have existed decades ago and never has, we've never had the population or sustainable population, we've never had someone in charge of coordinating this area before. I think that's another example of where Australians have thought, hang on, this ought to be coordinated and government's just never caught up.
So in the consultation that I've been engaging with, people always want to know what's the starting point of the Government? What's your vision? Certainly Julia does not share a vision that growth of itself has necessarily a whole lot of economic consequences that are all good.
I think you only had to see that article in the Sunday Telegraph yesterday about people in western Sydney, whole families living out of motel rooms and the projections that we've now got, that the housing shortfall in Australia by 2014 will be 300,000 homes short.
You just can't keep piling more and more people into areas that are, by any stretch of the imagination, the infrastructure's full.
JOHN STANLEY:
So is that the message from the people in your electorate, that they want immigration cut back or if it's to be kept up at the levels it is, that they should go somewhere else?
TONY BURKE:
I think the simplicity of the message is people want to be able to get a seat on the bus. People want to be able to make sure that if they're kids are looking for a home they've got some chance of getting a home somewhere near where the rest of the family lives, if that's what they want and we simply have not been able to keep up.
Now, there are other areas of the country where there's massive demand for people. You look at some of those mining areas where the only way they can get workers is instead of people trying to get a seat on a bus people fly to work, in the fly-in, fly-out areas.
So there are areas that desperately need people. It's just we've had a habit in Australia to date of people settling in areas where unemployment is often at its worst, where the housing shortfall is incredibly difficult, and left other areas of Australia that desperately needed people short.
JOHN STANLEY:
But are you going to be able to put forward a policy that will, rather than enunciate the problem, which you've done very well, that's going to provide a solution that people can look at and say, well, this is the approach that's being taken, for instance new migrants, skilled migrants will have to go and live in a certain part of Australia for a number of years, greater incentives for them to live in other parts of Australia. Will we see something concrete or just a lot of rhetoric?
TONY BURKE:
Oh, no. There'll be a whole lot of policy that hangs off it but I don't want to set the expectations that for an area of policy we've never coordinated before, that we're going to be able to take one step and suddenly we'll be able to fix all of it.
A lot of the population challenges are created by Australians moving from one part of the country to another and it's not something you can regulate but certainly you can better plan in the infrastructure in those sorts of areas.
JOHN STANLEY:
But the Financial Review today accuses you of dogwhistle politics and talks about making noises about reducing the population and, if we do, we reduce immigration, we'll have to explain to our kids why, for instance, their living standards are down, why business hasn't been able to grow, because there aren't enough customers, why our tax base is shrinking. There are those arguments, aren't there?
TONY BURKE:
I don't know how anyone can accuse you of dogwhistling when you're talking about environmental sustainability. These are really simple issues that make a difference to people's lives.
If you're stuck in gridlock all the way to work and all the way home, that's two hours of your life that either could have been at work or could have been with your family, that's just gone. These are real issues and I think similarly to what Julia said about asylum-seekers, we can't let political correctness say that you get all these labels thrown at you simply because you're trying to do something about a problem that's making a massive difference to people's lives.
JOHN STANLEY:
Okay, Tony Burke we'll leave it there. I'm sure we'll talk again soon. Thank you and enjoy that walk.
TONY BURKE:
Okay, thanks, John, see ya.
JOHN STANLEY:
Tony Burke there, the Minister for Sustainable Population. You may have some thoughts on that.
SANDY ALOISI:
Tackling the two issues that the Gillard Government's going to have to look at fairly soon before the next election: one, the problem of asylum-seekers, you would have heard the Prime Minister at the weekend saying she understands why people are apprehensive about asylum-seekers coming to Australia or boat people coming to Australia. They shouldn't be called racist. She understands their concerns.
By the same token, she understands the compassion that some people have for boat people and the human rights lawyer, Julian Burnside, he himself has said that asylum-seekers, the policy should be much more compassionate because for every one asylum-seeker there are 20 new permanent immigrants to Australia.
So we thought we'd make this the topic of our snap poll question this morning. The poll question is: should the Australian Government take a tougher stance on boat people? Yes or no, 13 13 32.
Should the Australian Government take a tougher stance on boat people? Our snap poll this morning.
JOHN STANLEY:
Simple yes or no, on 13 13 32.